Do we really need a list of what games are available on digital distribution services?

I guess the way I see it is: It doesn't harm the wiki, but it doesn't add a whole lot to the wiki either.

There are 15,000 titles on Steam now, with more always coming. I don't expect that number will remain at 15,000 in the future, and of the thousands of pages on this wiki, not all of them are works, much less games.

Work names spread out and probably repeated several times across pages worth of forum posts lose some of the advantages that a simple, user-edited list has.

*shrugs* You could say the same about a lot of works pages. Just because you're not using it doesn't mean someone isn't or that no one ever will.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 8th 2019 at 2:18:49 AM

Our wiki is about tropes and works, not distribution platforms.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with moving it someplace less official, but for lack of a better way to actually search this information, I don't think it should be cut.

Well, we have yet to find anyone who actually uses that index, so the burden of proof is sort of on you.

I didn't even know about it until this motion to cut it was suddenly in front of us, but it seems like about as useful an index as any other — situational, but more convenient to have and not need than to arbitrarily cut and later run into a situation in which it might be useful. It's not exactly taking up room we can't spare.

It's reasonably regularly updated. I would think reaching out to those editors would be the next step, rather than suddenly cutting it out from under them.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 8th 2019 at 3:03:24 AM

I mean, if you want to know a particular Steam game is on TV Tropes, can't you just, like, type it into the url or search bar and see if it comes up?

The point of indexes of works is to find other works similar in trope content to each other. Steam has games from all sorts of genres, the only commonality things would have is that they're all PC games. And if you think that's important, I would prefer to make a single index for all games playable on a PC rather than having a bunch of inherently ephemeral indexes for each platform. While whether a game is available on Steam could change over time, the fact that it was made for PC doesn't.

Yes, but if you had a number of games you wanted to check all at once, a list would still be more convenient.

I don't see an index of PC games as needing to be mutually exclusive from a list of Steam games. They do overlap, but as I keep saying, I don't think the list of Steam games needs to be an official index, but it's still potentially useful information that we have no more convenient way of easily pulling up.

Although that is something that the Steam index is useful for — it would be a good starting point for building up a PC games index. Like I keep saying, it doesn't have to be an official part of wiki, but the information already exists. There's no particular benefit to erasing it, and no real cost to having it somewhere.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 8th 2019 at 4:37:19 AM

You keep saying "potentially useful information."

Useful to who? For what?

What is the point?

"Boy, I sure am looking forward to perusing this laughably incomplete list of games that were available on Steam at some point somewhere in the world, but not necessarily right now or in my region!" said no one ever.

This is getting circular. Putting it to a crowner.

Edited by HighCrate on Feb 9th 2019 at 6:11:33 AM

It's circular because you keep returning to it as a list of all Steam games, which I keep saying it doesn't need to be. All it needs to be is a list of what games on Steam have trope pages already. That allows a troper to, for example, look at their library of Steam games, look at the list of games we have pages for, and quickly see where there are gaps that they might be able to help fill. There may be other uses that haven't come up yet. And again, why not just move it somewhere less official? Why isn't that an option? Why are the only options being considered cut or do nothing?

The way the crowner is phrased seems a little weighted, frankly.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 9th 2019 at 11:57:34 AM

Yeah, I can agree that the crowner is worded very biasedly.

Why? Why is it relevant or interesting that the publishers of these games happened to reach a distribution agreement with Steam? Of what possible use is that information?

"Gee, Super Monkey Adventure DX is a great game with lots of tropes. Wonder if it has a TV Tropes page. Well, it's not on this list of Steam games with TV Tropes pages, so I guess I won't look into it any further."

Said.

No one.

Ever.

If this argument is circular, it's because you keep ignoring most of what I'm saying. This is a niche resource for people working on the wiki. It does not need to be an official article or index — I just don't think that means it needs to be deleted outright. Those aren't the only two options.

You haven't put forward another option. What are these hypothetical other options? Are they like the hypothetical people who might someday theoretically use these indices, but don't?

I did give another option: all it needs to be is a list of what games on Steam have trope pages already. That allows a troper to, for example, look at their library of Steam games, look at the list of games we have pages for, and quickly see where there are gaps that they might be able to help fill.

And on the previous page: it works as a starting point for a theoretical index of games made for PC — copy and paste, change the necessary details, and off you go. If we had cut it on some previous occasion, that entire index would need to be written from scratch.

I can't think of a reason we'd need to know how many Steam games we've got on the website right now, but given that the information already exists, it seems like a waste to cut it if there's no benefit to doing so. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 9th 2019 at 1:37:21 PM

I can't think of a reason we'd need to know how many Steam games we've got on the website right now.

Me neither. If you want to copy the list we have now and save it in a text file on your hard drive in case someday there's actually a use case for it, I'm not stopping you. Let me know if a use case occurs to you. In the meantime, I remain in favor cutting it.

That prevents it from being user-editable and updated by the community.

It seems pointless to just delete it out of some vague notion of housekeeping when we could shunt it somewhere less official.

Edited by Unsung on Feb 9th 2019 at 1:50:35 PM

That is not a compelling argument. Like, at all.

If you have no use for something, you get rid of it, plain and simple. You don't keep it in the hopes that maybe someday you'll find a use for it.

Edited by Primis on Feb 9th 2019 at 6:44:56 AM

That's why I listed two other use cases above that.

I'll ask again, why can't we just move it? Why are the only options cut or do nothing?

Edited by Unsung on Feb 9th 2019 at 1:50:44 PM

I'd just like to point out that there's already indexes for PC games: IBM Personal Computer for Windows and Apple Macintosh for Mac. There's no Linux game index, but given the pattern, a list could be added to UNIX.

For the record, even though I've contributed to some of the digital distribution pages before, I'm fully in support of cutting them.

Edited by MissMokushiroku on Feb 9th 2019 at 3:59:32 PM

The problem with turning it into a PC games index is that barely any games on Steam are exclusive to PC, or even Steam itself, so it's still inherently inaccurate and a terrible starting point.

And having indexes for games that are available on multiple platforms solves absolutely nothing. It would literally be the exact same thing as these indexes, just replace "Steam" and "GOG" with "PC" and "PS4".

Edited by Primis on Feb 9th 2019 at 2:00:44 AM

It's text. It can be edited. It's a useful starting point in that it's already formatted and alphabetized. That seems like enough, as starting points go.

Still haven't gotten an answer to this: why can't we just move it? It's of situational usefulness, but it already exists and is regularly updated. It's not damaging anything, and if we ever did need that information, it'd be a lot more work to do it again from scratch. What is the benefit of cutting it?

Move it to a forum thread.

Fighteer addressed the benefits of cutting it on the previous page:

Third, unnecessary things like this can lead people viewing them to think we want more pages like it. For example, we've had the exact same discussion about Good Old Games, Netflix, and Crunchyroll. In each case, the existence of similar indexes is used to justify the others, in a circular logic feedback loop.

Fourth, these articles draw user time and attention that could be better put to other uses.

Fifth, index bloat is a problem, when you look down at the bottom of a page and your eyes glaze over all the indexes it's on.

Edited by HighCrate on Feb 9th 2019 at 2:51:45 AM