He was detained by officers from the Landespolizei Schleswig-Holstein after the car he’s in was being stopped.

Brussels mentioned that he was going back to Belgium and submit himself to the courts when the arrest happened.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:52:07 PM by TheHandle

Comparing Puidgemont to Gandhi and Spain's relationship with Catalonia to the British treating India as their spice rack seems disingenuous.

edited 25th Mar '18 7:50:59 AM by M84

edited 25th Mar '18 3:51:55 PM by TheHandle

There is no "occupation". Catalonia is fully, and has been for a long time, integrated and interwoven into the general Spanish social, cultural and political fabric.

Catalonia is no more occupied than the old kingdom of Castille, Leon, Galicia or what used to be the Emirate of Granada or the Caliphate of Córdoba. They are all fully integrated into the modern state of Spain, regardless of any perceived unjust historical circumstances.

I ask you to please not use entirely different examples for a comparison, even if it is done in jest.

edited 25th Mar '18 8:24:09 AM by germi91

Isn't Belgium a city with special diplomatic status, since it is the de facto capital of the EU? If he was anywhere else in Belgium, he would've been detained on the spot just like he got detained in Germany. The same would've happened with other EU countries, due to the legal, criminal justice and judicial cooperation that got codified with the Maastricht Treaty (and the next treaties that ensued), even if it was in limited form.

Anyway, this was probably coming. Puigdemont was running out of solutions and space, one of the Jordis has retired from politics, and there's a disarray in the pro-independence fields.

Also, I second the suggestions to not compare Puigdemont to Gandhi, because India's relationship to the British Empire was quite different from the current relationship between Catalunya and the Spanish central government.

edited 25th Mar '18 8:43:05 AM by Quag15

Yes, fully integrated. A push for independence clearly doesn't exist.

You know, the more I see this mess the more I'm starting to think that France's attempts of killing their regional identities -as hideous as that is- has some sense in Europe. Is there a multicultural country in the european continent that can accept its diversity without falling into separatism eventually?

edited 25th Mar '18 9:19:09 AM by raziel365

It only makes sense if you prioritise the nation state over anything that makes it up and want to enforce a single cultural hegemony for that end.

Which is halfway to describing why this mess happened in the first place.

x5 Do you include the Basques in that integration?

Worth mentioning that the independentist movement won't shut up about "Catalunya united" and that they represent "the people" while blatantly ignoring the large percentage of Catalonians that DON'T want to split off from Spain

It is. If you've lived in Catalonia, had a first-hand account of things and actual experience of Spanish general culture, you'd agree with what I said, especially since a region being politically, culturally and socially integrated is a statement independent of the fact that a minority wishes to pursue strictly political independence.

Except that the Spanish constitution itself has very specific provisions and articles giving unique protective status to each of the regions, their culture and language.

edited 25th Mar '18 9:33:52 AM by germi91

We must be using different meanings of fully integrated, then.

... and giving one of said Spanish languages primacy because of its political dominance (never mind that the constitution came long after this affair started) whilst the others are official only on strictly regional lines. And I said halfway; I didn't say that it was a French-style attempt to exterminate alternative cultures quickly.

edited 25th Mar '18 9:36:13 AM by RainehDaze

Fully integrated doesn't mean there won't be troubles for having diversity, but it means that the country can keep its people to see past the sedition and remember their supranational unity. Which is something that the Catalan top brass is trying to kill to keep themselves in power, nevermind the collateral damage that their attitude will bring to the region.

Edit:

Also, having one language be the face for the country is not unheard of, it's basically what happens here in Peru where we use Spanish as the main government language despite there being a ton lot of other indigenous languages such as Quechua, Aimara, Shipibo amongst others; leadership doesn't mean exclusion.

edited 25th Mar '18 9:50:21 AM by raziel365

edited 25th Mar '18 3:51:33 PM by TheHandle

It's really hard to believe the ones in charge of this movement are doing it for their compatriots when the moment they start facing consequences:

a) The "legitimate president" immediately books it to another country rather than face any hardship with the people and country he claims to represent while going "I'm not running away, I'm being exiled!" and the followers are told this is part of "the plan"

b) His cronies that haven't high-tailed yet (or do so later) start backtracking and swearing that what they were doing was "symbolic"

Heck, Puidgemont was arrested today because he was fleeing to Germany instead of allowing himself to be taken by the Belgium police like his lawyer swore he would

edited 25th Mar '18 10:40:44 AM by Proglottid

First, if I ever find myself being persecutted for my political beliefs and have to face jail or flee the country, I'll take the same path as Puidgemont did.

Second, he was going back to Belgium like he said he would, he just had to go through Germany to get there.

edited 25th Mar '18 11:11:51 AM by Grafite

If you're starting out in Scandinavia and heading to Belgium, then you're going to have to pass through Denmark and Germany if you're going by land; being arrested in Germany just shows that the authorities are being hasty.

No one is being persecuted for their beliefs. The very fact that pro-independence parties are in the Catalonian parliament is evidence of this. It is the illegality of proclaiming independence, the action itself, that is judged here.

Yeah, people can elect pro-independence parties all they want, but if those parties try and do anything: ignore them, shut them down, and resort to arrests and banning them from political office. That's not persecuting anyone for their beliefs at all.

By "try and do anything", you mean proclaim independence? Because they have been governing Catalonia for a while now. They have had plenty of time to build the "republican institutions" necessary for the creation of their own state (which they have not, regardless of the warning from one of their coalition partners, the CUP). Their policies have been the ones that have been put forward.

The ultimate contract and rules amongst citizens is the constitution. It is the absolute and supreme law that may be reformed or abolished entirely, should they gain the majority they wish at a national level (or form alliances and common policy programmes with other national parties). The 1978 referendum included the catalonians and they overwhelmingly voted for the current constitution.

Now, if you wish, we may discuss how the constitution could be reformed or a new one be drafted. I am in absolutely in favour of it in fact, including the possibility to allow, through a negotiation, that a referendum be held. I am a republican - the monarchy to me is incompatible with a political system organized as a democracy, in its purest concept. I am in favour of sortition as a tool to grant ordinary citizens the opportunity to participate as legislators and gain political experience through it. I would reform the senate entirely, provide exactly the same number of senators for all regions. I would change the organization of the state and have Spain become a federation, with some similarities to the Swiss model. I am in favour of obligatory military or social service when reaching the age of 18, along with the possibility that anyone may be called upon to military service should the state be in such a situation that it requires it.

I would like to promote the artful arrangement of institutions so that no power is too great, no ambitious tyrant attempts to subvert, usurp or dominate the constitution, no faction gains sufficient influence and leverage to undo the democracy, corruption is never permitted to gain a single foothold upon a virtuous citizenry.

There is no expectation that all my fellow countrymen will agree with everything, but they be interested (and two parties at least on a national level are) in establishing a federal state. None of this is possible so long as those who support independence cease to follow their passions and acknowledge that they must be realistic in their tactics.

Sortition is a pretty terrible thing to rely on for filling offices, but that's neither here nor there.

Though we're mostly just repeating points made in the past (and earlier in the thread): there are no legal avenues open to the independence movement if the rest of the Spanish government decides they don't care, and it's shown a perfect willingness to declare even token referenda illegal. What you're basically saying is: "they're allowed to govern provided that they never actually express separatist sentiment in any form", and then hiding behind the shield of the rest of the country to deny any opportunity to progress out of this political deadlock.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:51:00 PM by TheHandle

I normally don't have an issue with making unilateral declarations of independence illegal, but when you refuse any talks, restrict the democratic process and respond with violence against a peaceful movement (that to my knowledge is not particularly radical and has stuck to civic nationalism), I start to lose a lot of sympathy.

Madrid should have taken Ottawa's and London's examples and began a counter campaign years ago, paired with increased autonomy and other concessions (real or otherwise). But I think that ship has sailed, and its all on the federal government in this case, so I can't blame the Catalans (however flawed their vote was before Madrid did far worse) for wanting to take a more direct route. That said, apparently support for outright independence is slipping, so they might be better off looking for more concessions and de-centralization, maybe even constitutional change (how tough/viable is that in Spain?).

Pardoning everyone involved or dropping the charges would be an excellent first step towards reconciling both sides, but I doubt the powers that be in Spain will take that option when blunt force has worked well (in the short term).

edited 25th Mar '18 3:50:48 PM by TheHandle