Fate/Apocrypha

Yeah but at least Homunculi when given a chance to escape their intended purpose will take it if they feel they can trust that person. Sieg going to free them is why they decide to go rogue, when they otherwise would have embraced being fuel for Servants and sacrificial foot soldiers.

edited 5th Oct '17 2:34:03 PM by OmegaRadiance

Again that is why they shouldn't be given free will at the very least.

Sieg is taking off with the castles literal fuel supply & army.

I feel like Mordred wasn't out of nowhere. She's just taking her path slowly to Kairi's car, but then it gets too noisy so she shut the source off before she can take her time leisurely to walk through the car.

Wait I just thought of this but since Jack the fucking Ripper is a Servant does that mean any serial killer that possess major notoriety can become a Servant?

Or is it only cause Jack's unknown identity gives it a mystery boost that most others don't have?

edited 5th Oct '17 4:08:52 PM by slimcoder

Depends on whether Nasu thinks they should or be Phantoms

edited 5th Oct '17 4:21:22 PM by OmegaRadiance

I think Jack the Ripper is supposed to be particularly iconic of serial killers as a whole.

From the wiki: Assassin of Black, the Servant of Reika Rikudou in Fate/Apocrypha, is an "amalgamation of the children who were aborted by the many prostitutes who lived in White Chapel, London." Although she committed murders of prostitutes in life, she is uncertain if she was Jack the Ripper or if those were Jack the Ripper's victims. Berserker, the Servant of Flatt Escardos in Fate/strange fake, is the embodiment of the mystery behind the legend of Jack the Ripper in the form of an "emblem of madness."

This is why I don't like Fates that much, They can't keep shit simple. Heck, isn't it impossible for Spirits like her, i.e. not very heroic, to be summoned? I thought the only reason Spirits like those showed up in stay night was because the Grail was corrupted. Pretty sure it isn't in this timeline.

edited 5th Oct '17 4:51:11 PM by RedRob

Yeah, Jack is a being born from the grudges of all the children that got aborted by London prostitutes. There was never any single human being it corresponds to. In a way it's an existence closer to a demon than a human.

Alright so it is the mystery boost.

Jack's identity never being discovered makes him immortal as people will discuss who he could have been forever effectively making him a true legend. No serial killer since then has become so legendary.

Though Jack's still a murderer so the Throne of Heroes definition of "Hero" is rather muddled. Whatever crazy backstory Jack gets here to make appear more sympathetic doesn't excuse the fact that Jack was a demented monster.

Tbh, ever since Grand Order, the requirements for being a Heroic Spirits plummeted into the ground. At this point if you are remembered by history or legend you probably qualify.

I guess we should just call Heroic Spirits by the other name, "Legendary Souls". Overall, it causes a lot less trouble.

Anti-Heroes are still heroes.

Don't ask me how Jack or Avengers qualify as that.

Indeed that makes more sense.

I mean fucking Moriarty is a Servant & he's the main villain of Sherlock Holmes.

Such bullshitery there.

edited 5th Oct '17 4:57:28 PM by slimcoder

Something something even his heart can grow three sizes Grinch style.

The original Avenger at least qualifies because he took on himself all the evil of the world*, a heroic act from a certain point of view.

*Actually just a small community, but so insular that it qualified as a miniature world.

I meant the Beasts are servants because they Love humans. Said Love will also kill us all. Or in the case of Heavens Garbage Dump Beast III L loves themself the most.

x5 Well one Avenger is the Count of Monte Cristo. Considering why he wanted revenge, I say he's an Anti-Hero.

Jack still doesn't make sense.

edited 5th Oct '17 5:02:06 PM by RedRob

Red: It's even more complicated than that. Jack is just one candidate for Jack the Ripper. We don't see any others, but we do see a Servant that embodies the mystery of Jack the Ripper and for their only wish wants to know who the real Jack was.

As for why evil Spirits can be summoned, well, presumably it's because the Grail has been tampered with in other ways. Maybe that safety protocol was disabled. Or maybe that rule was just too restrictive and Higashide decided to ignore it.

slim: The definition of hero the Throne goes by basically seems to be 'Defied fate, is very famous or sold their soul. Also, Michelangelo isn't invited because fuck off.'

Omega: Avengers are hinted to play a very specific and important role. What that role is is unclear, but might be expanded upon. I do know that the worst of them, Gorgon, is specifically noted to usually not be possible to summon at all.

Also, it's noted that the less a 'hero' cares about the preservation of the human order the less likely they are to be summoned. It's used to explain why Caligula might actually be a decent guy beneath his madness because it implies that if nothing else, he wants to preserve and protect Rome.

Edit: Beasts aren't Servants. Goetia, Tiamat, Kiara and Fou were just incredibly powerful beings.

edited 5th Oct '17 5:03:35 PM by Arha

Huh that insular community thing makes sense. No wonder he inherited all the world's evil, he did do it for a world technically.

Ok then that's the qualification for being a Servant, having even the most minor or twisted ass love for humanity. I wonder if being a necrophiliac qualifies you then.

edited 5th Oct '17 5:05:34 PM by slimcoder

Kiara became a servant. And it's specifically based on her being a Beast.

^^ Um, it's more like that's the qualification for being summoned. That you don't just want to see the world burn and care literally for nothing else. Gorgon being like that is why she shouldn't normally be summonable.

^ Yeah, but she's not a Beast when you summon her, she's an Alter Ego.

edited 5th Oct '17 5:07:02 PM by Arha

Beasts are the inversion of Heroic Spirits - while Heroic Spirits exist to safeguard mankind, Beasts exists to destroy it.

Let's not even get on the Sakuras that are a seriously bugged AI and several things blended together.

Ok lets just consider them Legends cause a lot of them are not heroes.

Hell even the Greek God's qualify & they were monsters well a couple of them at least.

Though I do have an issue with the adaptational heroism several characters receive.

edited 5th Oct '17 5:22:18 PM by slimcoder

Gods actually don't qualify. True ones, that is, not counting stuff like Herk becoming a god after death. They only get in through loopholes like avatars, possession or hijacking someone else's summon.