Pokemon Generations(Anime shorts)

Aster being a Dead Guy Junior is more likely to me than Aster being named after Zinnia's actual kid.

I agree it's more likely, but it's also not nearly as interesting or sympathetic enough to get me on Zinnia's side.

I mean, in the manga at least, Aster had special powers that none of the other Draconids had, and she was the only one that Rayquaza trusted enough to let ride on its head.

Plus, either way, Aster most likely was a burning corpse by the time Zinnia found her in Special; anyone would probably at least slightly lose it if they were placed in the same situation.

edited 21st Oct '16 9:23:42 PM by Ssj3Gojira

I... I dunno if I agree that the death of someone you love is more meaningful if it's someone who's not family. I can't wrap my head around that at all.

Who are you responding to?

I'm only saying what I'd personally find more interesting and sympathetic. No one obviously has to agree with my opinion.

Okay, it does not justify her actions, especially not the attempted murder of Ruby and Saphire, but I can sympathize.

I was responding to Very Melon, sorry. I'm still not used to this forum format.

Especially since she mostly likely went there once she learned Aster was in trouble, only to find the area in flames and Aster's corpse burning in the middle of it all; that would be traumatizing to anyone.

edited 21st Oct '16 9:34:03 PM by Ssj3Gojira

The daughter thing is Fan Wank. Zinnia definitely treats the Whismur like a daughter but the way she talks about the original Aster implies they were older or of comparable age.

Also she's too young looking to have had a daughter that was old enough to talk before dying.

She's still a huge bitch, and the fact that the story tries to make her sympathetic so late into the narrative after everything she's done and how she's acted in general is frankly insulting and makes me hate her more.

edited 21st Oct '16 9:38:47 PM by Karxrida

I would then ask you where your line is, because she's hardly unique in that regard. Why is Zinnia so special in that her crimes are more deserving of being condemned? Even DP Pt makes Cyrus, a guy whose goal is no less than universal destruction and who tortures 3 mystical beings in addition to having his minions bomb a lake, sympathetic

I don't understand what makes Zinnia so much worse in your eyes than the likes of that. It goes on and on; Giovanni is complicit in the abuse and even death of Pokemon, but he gets sent off with a measure of sentimentality. The list goes on; Xerosic, Malva, the Galactic admins... the way Zinnia gets singled out is frankly mystifying to me.

Because the writing for her was terribad while the others were written competently.

I posted a link earlier to a post that already detailed the issues better than I ever could.

edited 21st Oct '16 9:48:49 PM by Karxrida

Zinnia is not the protagonist of Delta Episode, the player character is. She's weirdly an ally and an opponent, but she's also simultaneously wrong about some things and right about others. That's the point; Delta Episode was about grief and the fact that the right thing to do sometimes is a messy subject.

Zinnia's character comes off as inconsistent on whether the player is meant to agree with her or not. It's a matter of writing quality, so no amount of saying "Like or dislike her, this is a case of "working as intended." is going to change anyone's mind on how unclear those intentions are when it comes to Zinnia's story and the story of the Delta Episode in total.

I don't know what to tell you, dude. This is how I read it. I'm gonna argue true to my own views.

I mean, everyone in the Delta Episode, as right and well intentioned as they seem, has something that makes you go "wait a minute". Courtney is acting out of grief and the Devon Corporation bases their technology on a life sucking lich gun. That to me feels like a theme, and it informs how I see Zinnia.

edited 21st Oct '16 9:54:04 PM by TFRazorsaw

And there we go, no one's getting anywhere because this entire argument is based on making one party understand the other.

So logically the next short should involve Rayquaza right?

...isn't that always the point of discussing fiction?

edited 21st Oct '16 9:56:18 PM by TFRazorsaw

After a point, someone has to realize nothing productive is being done. Then that person has to decide if an argument is worth pursuing when a stalemate is clearly visible.

I'm no longer interested in a circular discussion on why I found Zinnia uninteresting and unsympathetic. I've said everything I could say, and there's nothing else I can add to it.

edited 21st Oct '16 10:00:58 PM by VeryMelon

If you want to bow out that's fine. I don't think either side here deserves to be treated like they're stonewalling or being pointlessly argumentative.

edited 21st Oct '16 10:05:36 PM by TFRazorsaw

That's the plan. Until next weeks episode.

edited 21st Oct '16 10:07:28 PM by VeryMelon

I hope Archie is okay.

Kinda like the conflict between the Draconoids and Devon Corp.

But wow, I didn't know about that thing with Aster in the manga. How did it get violent so quickly? Do we know for sure that it was Devon Corp that killed him? From the sound of things, we just saw the tail end of the battle, and we can't be sure who killed who.

Did Manga Rayquazza show any signs of anger towards Devon or anyone connected it? Because if what it did to Zinnia was anything to go by, when you piss him off, he lets you know damn quickly.

But yeah. At least in the manga, I understand a little better why she's so pissed at Devon. I'm glad they explained it. Now, if there was something like this in the games, I might feel the same way about her.

Though I'm not sure if I like the idea that Steven and his dad were potentially responsible for a murder.

I personally think the manga is hit or miss in regards to a lot of things, myself. Some of what it does is cool, other stuff...not so much.

Looks like I'm late to the Zinnia slapfight. But I want to clear up who Aster is, because for some reason the game never explains, and leads some people to think they're Zinnia's daughter, which is darker than it really is. According to the writer in an interview about Zinnia, Aster was the previous Lorekeeper before Zinnia. She was probably older than Zinnia, and she had magic powers that Zinnia doesn't have. Something happened to her, so Zinnia became the new Lorekeeper despite not having the all the qualities necessary. I haven't read the ORAS arc of the manga, but I assume it's the same there, just it's explicit what happened to Aster.

Also, I want to add something I thought of to that post I made about Zinnia yesterday. A big reason it feels weird on whether we're supposed to agree with Zinnia or not is that her big appeal to the player to go with her plan is that the Link Cable would warp the meteor into the path of a parallel universe Hoenn. The thing with that is that it's purely an appeal to the actual player playing the game. We can believe her story because it sounds she's talking about the RSE universe Hoenn, and how we're playing a new universe with ORAS, and about version differences.

But she has no in-universe proof of what she's saying, just that's it's some legend. So Steven and Cosmo are completely justified from their point of view to call Zinnia out on being crazy to use that as a reason to destroy their only known plan of saving Hoenn. Zinnia comes off as overly smug with how she acts, despite no one having a good reason to believe her. And even if the player themselves believe her, the player character in-universe has no reason to believe her and go along with it like they do. And that's not even mentioning that she then runs off without giving a new plan to save Hoenn, despite insisting that she has one.