Captain America: Civil War (with SPOILERS!) Discussion and Whatever Thread

Or unless he started bouncing it off walls.

That's give him away pretty easily.

There aren't many places... but there are places. Enough that Black Panther (who certainly isn't afraid of anyone) is relatively safe. It's not like the epilogue didn't show Steve, you know, successfully breaking a bunch of unpowered people out of a goddamn super-prison under the ocean. T'Challa can just go "yeah. Guy must've stolen it from somewhere. Crazy, right?"

Hell, last movie saw enough Vibranium stolen to build two robots and turn a city into a world destruction device.

Actually, now that I think about it, it is really weird that the Wakandans just happened to be in the one floor of the specific random building that got blown up in Lagos after AOU. That's a Contrived Coincidence that I sorta glossed over because my brain was going "Holy shit, Wakanda!"

edited 6th Dec '16 11:04:54 AM by Larkmarn

Not really. They're a diplomatic delegation. It's not weird for them all to get together for a meeting.

It's a weird coincidence for them to be on that specific floor in that specific building at that specific time

No, it's called "Narrative Convenience."

edited 6th Dec '16 12:52:22 PM by alliterator

Isn't there a story about Ironman replacing Cap's shield (because the old one was lost) and he stops throwing it because, as it turns out, he is only able to achieve that level of precision with his original one?

Anyway, I don't want to see the dead of Captain America...mostly because I want to see the secret invasion storyline. I really liked it in EMH, but I can imagine a great MCU take on it...like this: Having either a Captain America 4 or another Avenger's movie and the big mike-drop in the end is the revelation that the Steve Rogers we have seen the whole movie actually isn't Steve Rogers. In EMH they kept the revelation secret from the actual Avengers until Cap broke out of prison and came back to earth, but let's assume it happens earlier this time around....leading to Bucky picking up the shield in his absence.

Naturally Cap manages to do the Break out later on and has than to deal with what his doppelgänger did and how it tarnished his reputation

EMH did the Secret Invasion really well, but in the comics it was... ehhhhhh... and it doesn't seem like it would translate well to the movies.

Hence why this was basically Civil War in the sense of Team Cap vs. Team Iron Man.

Now, maybe I'm spoiled because Astro City did the Secret Invasion better. And earlier. And it was also the Civil War. Also done better.

edited 6th Dec '16 1:36:03 PM by Larkmarn

Just a thing here: the vibranium Ultron used was already stole by Klaw, so is not like they take from T`chaka directly.

And more important, if we see Steve with a Shield it can be only to explanation: or Steve have powerfull friend(ehhh in conection not in superpower) or he got the backing of a Vibranium country, which means.....

Yeah, I dont think we are going to see a new shield any time soon

Right, it was stolen by Klaw... which proves that it can be stolen. T'Challa just needs plausible deniability here. People can suspect him all they want, but if they can't prove it, then he's fine.

The only thing I'd be worried about is explaining how Steve managed to shape the shield itself. But Ultron managed to build countless robots (including a Vibranium one) using an abandoned HYDRA base so it's not like it's impossible to work the stuff with (relatively) mundane tools.

edited 6th Dec '16 2:22:14 PM by Larkmarn

That is true.

Nobody can be sure that the Vibranium Ultron stole (that was used to make the Vision) is all the Vibranium that Klaw has.

Plausible Deniability is go.

Klaw stealing vibranium isn't exactly a daily occurrence, though. Remember the reason why Wakanda started to take interest in foreign affairs again was because the stolen vibranium nearly destroyed the world. An "oops, it happened" again is not really believable in this case. And plausible deniability is nice and all, but it would draw attention to Wakanda, which is certainly not in Steve's interest. He would decline a shield for Bucky's sake if not for another reason.

"Ooops it happened again" "oops it's the same stuff" "ooops it happened long ago."

And from a Doylist perspective it makes sense because it keeps Wakanda more relevant.

Personally, I'd rather Steve not have a shield at all. It's been stated definitively that as of the end of Civil War he's no longer Captain America. Giving him a new shield, no matter what it's made of, would deeply undermine that statement.

I'd really like some hints that Steve has been using his downtime to address his issues (you will never convince me he doesn't have a raging case of PTSD) and has a conversation where he says something like not realizing how heavy that shield actually was until he dropped it for good. And then the shit hits the fan, and someone tries to give him the shield anyway because this really is an end-of-the-word emergency. so he takes it... and has panic attack caused by flashing back to the last fight he had with it, because "Howard gave me that shield to protect people, and I almost killed his son with it!". So someone else steps up, because the world needs Captain America, but who says it has to be Steve Rogers? And while I'm very okay with that person being Bucky, I think Sam would be a better choice; he may not have superhuman abilities, but mentally and emotionally he's a lot more stable than both the actual super soldiers combined.

And on a sillier note, having Steve get involved in the fighting without a shield and still kick mass-quantities of ass and scoff at people who are surprised by that would offer a chance for a call back to Batroc's line "I thought you were more than just a shield" in Winter Soldier.

I don't want to loose Chris Evans in the MCU and I also don't want magical recoveries, which is why I wouldn't mind him being Cap forever...in a way, being Cap is about more than the shield, it is about Steve.

Thus said, I agree, a replacement shield would undermined Civil War. And yes, Steve has PTSD and raging identity issues.

But I don't like the notion of Falcon being Captain America and here is why: It leaves the impression that being Falcon is kind of a lesser thing to being Captain America and honestly, I want Sam Wilson to be a popular hero in his own right as Falcon instead of running around in Steve's hand me downs.

I would mind it slightly less if The Winter Soldier becomes cap because for one, Bucky pretty much has the same character Steve had, but without the initial disadvantage and a more tragic live story and two "The Winter Soldier" is a code name Hydra gave him, so for him it would make sense to get rid of it and to use the shield instead of the arm.

There are also practical reasons for it...since in the MCU Captain America isn't really a title but a stage name and the "cap" the other Avengers use is actually short for "captain Rogers", there isn't really a title to give over to someone else, just a shield.....and why exactly should Falcon wield a shield while flying around? That seems to be very cumbersome especially since it has been established that his wings can act as a shield. It would make more sense to redo those wings out of vibranium instead of him trying to hold the shield while being in the air.

I doubt B.P's actually going to back the Avengers. Aside from diplomatic concerns (what if someone eventually notices them heading back and forth from Wakanda, especially sine Zemo would have told them he was in Siberia) B.P supported the Accords and is from an isolationist nation.

Not to mention, didn't Steve actually say "we can't stay here" in the stinger? Why would T'challa back them if they weren't even in Wakanda? Any debt of honor he thinks he owes Steve would be repaid just by helping Bucky (keeping him in cryofreeze, trying to remove the trigger words, etc. and maybe a new arm; that'd be nice of them). And since Bucky is in Wakanda, Steve and company would likely not only stay away from there, but avoid the African continent as a whole, to avoid drawing attention to it.

Black Panther doesn't owe a debt to Steve. He owes one to Bucky. You know, for nearly killing him for something he didn't do....

Yeah, that's right. You get what I mean though, don't you?

Yeah, and I agree....he owes Bucky, but he won't risk Wakanda for a personal debt. And having the Avengers in the country will only lead to problems.

Not sure about his position concerning the accords though....I mean he wasn't exactly enthusiastic about it.

Damn hooligans.

I want those 2 minutes back!

Random musing.

Sometimes I like to imagine what would have happened if Iron Man brought the Hulkbuster or the House Party Protocol in the Iron Man vs Captain & Bucky fight.

Then agian, Hulkbuster wouldn't probably be too effective against small and nimble opponents.

Tell that to the Black Widow when Actual Hulk was chasing her.

Small and nimble only counts for so much when cramped into an enclosed space with a monster that takes up the whole passage.

MCU!Hulk probably falls under the category of "nimble" anyway.

Then again, Hulkbuster would have to be too, seeing how it's specifically designed to counter Hulk and won.

Hulkbuster got rekt by Hulk in the comics, right?