Captain America: Civil War (with SPOILERS!) Discussion and Whatever Thread

That is no smile in my eyes either. It is more resignation than anything else, mixed with a healthy dose of "I hate you all". (actually, one of my favourite scenes with him...his expression breaks my heart every time).

I think he's just mistaking his grimacing for a smile. It's a common occurrence.

Yeah, I agree. And when he kept arguing and said "but I knew him", his expression tells me he knew he was getting himself in trouble, but kept on anyway. Why was it so important to him that he convey that, knowing he'd be punished?

Because he doesn't know better. In absence of memories or emotional connections, Bucky is a blank slate whenever they wipe his mind. Every time they pull him out of the brainwipe, he imprints on the people in the room with him because they're the first people he's ever known. He trusts his handlers the way a child trusts a parent.

Nice headcannon, but I don't think that's really supported by anything in the movie.

Memories define people. Much of our identity is a product of the memories we've built up over the course of our lives. Bucky doesn't have that. Every time he opens his eyes in that room, the Hydra agents with him are the first people he's ever met. Meeting them is the first memory he's ever had, every time he has it.

I remember reading an interview back when TWS first came out where his actor said the Winter Soldier's mind isn't empty so much as that his mind is all over the place. Meaning he doesn't become a blank slate when they wipe him so much as the thoughts are still in his head but become incoherent. The scene in the vault was him starting to put 2+2 together again.

Spoilers?

An interesting concept I've been playing around with is 'What if instead of resorting to terrorism what if Zemo had just protested peacefully, got enough attention and demanded Stark be held responsible for Ultron. '?

That wouldn't have satisfied his desire to make The Avengers suffer. It wouldn't be the revenge he's looking for.

We've discussed this in the past. Assuming that the world even knows Stark constructed Ultron, there's also the issue that Sokovia doesn't seem to exist as a country anymore, making it difficult for him to be brought up on any kind of charges in a Sokovian court of law.

But for the sake of discussion, let's say the U.N. agrees to convene the ICC. What could they actually try him for? In order to be held responsible for anything Ultron did, one would first have to establish that Ultron is not a free-willed entity. Otherwise it's like putting Saddam Hussein's mom on trial for Hussein's crimes.

For Stark to be responsible for Ultron's actions, an AI must be a thing, not a person. A legal precedent that could have dire consequences for Vision, mind you.

Are there even any laws on the books regulating the creation of artificial intelligences?

Ultron's protocol to "secure peace in our time" came from Tony. I don't think it's a 1:1 comparison to say it's akin to raising a kid who then happened to go wrong because parents can't reach into their kid's head and type in direct commands.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:51:06 PM by Tuckerscreator

...

Yeah. Why wasn't Vision on that mission?

And why didn't he just blast the plane? In fact, destroying the plane should have been the first thing on Team Stark's agenda, but I'll cut them some slack on that one because they were trying to avoid a fight.

I don't think Bucky apologizing would have worked though. I think Tony was well past the point where simple words would placate him.

The plugging his ears with his fingers and just drowning Zemo out might have worked (did he really totally break his restraints like that? I can't fully re-call), but I call that hindsight. Heat of the moment, with someone putting you in a trance again, you panic. Bucky probably didn't think of that because he didn't expect someone to be able to still do that to him.

I think that whole Tony Accords thing was kinda shitting on him though. I imagine those people who are getting a little sick of Steve might see that as another bullshit thing making him out to be the good guy.

I just think it's funny.

So yeah, this was a good one.

The HISHE pointed out what I think is the biggest flaw of the film, being that Zemo's grand plan would have done nothing if there happened to be more or less of the team at the base.

And it was not really clear where the Quinjet even came from. In the middle of the Airport fight Steve points out the Quinjet as though he was surprised to see it there. MY reasoning would be that it was what transported Tony's team to the airport. If their goal was just to get to the jet, there wasn't much need to do the mirrored confrontation shot that they knew could not end well.

And yeah, Bucky was able to break out of his restraints while Zemo was doing the brainwashing code. Cover his ears and maybe that's an option, but it seems like just starting the brainwashing code was making him go berserk, hence being able to break the restraints intended to hold him.

Vision wasn't on the mission because 1. It was supposed to be a covert mission and he is a multi-coloured alien who doesn't even know that it is polite to use doors (meaning he is the opposite of covert) and 2. Vision said himself that he hasn't really dealt with what his stone can do. Bringing him is like bringing a nuke to a gun fight. He didn't really participate in the airport battle and only attacked indirectly for the same reason.

The plane was a funny one, but I think Vision orders were "too keep the avengers away from the plane" considering that he was ready to stop the Avengers from reaching it after they had successfully averted everyone else already.

I don't think that apologizing would have worked in this moment either. I don't think that Bucky would have been even able to utter one word. Hell, Steve points out to Tony that Bucky wasn't in control and Tony simply sais that he doesn't care.

The plugging of the ears is a stupid complain imho. Those words do something to Bucky, I doubt he was still thinking clearly when he managed to break loose.

There were some wonky ones in there (ie I doubt that Spider-man would have been able to web up all of them...after all, he didn't even manage to hold Cap alone), but overall, this is a very funny one. Especially the ant-man bit in the end.

If they hadn't turned up Zemo would have simply went to plan...I think C? I guess he went from Plan A to B when the Hydra guy didn't talk, and from plan B to C when Bucky didn't manage to escape from the facility and he had to suspect that he was with Cap.

And yes, the plane they tried to reach was the one the other Avengers arrived in. While Cap pretended that he tried to reach the helicopter Hawkeye had organized in order to distract Team Tony, Falcon was scanning for it.

edited 5th Jul '16 1:30:32 PM by Swanpride

All of them were definitely funny, even if they were more pro-Cap than I would like. Still good.

But if we must nitpick, I agree with

IIRC, Bucky doesn't even get the chance. Stark blindsides Cap with his repulsor then takes advantage of the moment to grab Bucky, rocket him up into the wall, and attempt to detonate a Tank Missile in his face at point-blank range. Bucky didn't have the time to get two words in.

But that's kinda the point of the gag. It's not just, "In this alternate scenario, Bucky has the presence of mind to apologize." It's also, "Tony has the presence of mind to not snap completely into berserker-mode. Because he's, y'know, a superhero."

Speaking of which,

• Tony: So, now that all is said and done, I still think you should sign the Accords.
• Steve: I'll think about it when I see some merit. As it is, I had to go outside the system to clear Bucky's name. So did you, matter of fact.
• Tony: It would have been done a lot faster if you two had just come back in after Zemo's conditioning antics.
• Steve: See, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You had your chance to wow me when Bucky was in confinement. Consider me un-wowed, Tony.
• Tony: Okay, we screwed up when we let Zemo in the compound, but you wouldn't have done any better. Nobody figured him out. You were just as surprised as we were when he attacked.
• Steve: I'm not even going to argue that. Ignoring the fact that this entire thing could have been prevented by something as simple as a photo ID, I'm letting that go. This has nothing to do with Zemo. Consider him neutral ground.
• Tony: Then what's the problem?
• Steve: You put Bucky in a specially-constructed cell meant to contain him, and he ripped it apart like papier-mâché.
• Tony: ...okay, fair point. And then you basically solo'd the entire Raft.
• Steve: I know the U.N. is kinda new to the whole "building prisons" thing, but you guys need a lot of work. They look impressive, but they're basically made of cardboard.
• Tony: Alright. We'll work on that. I'll let you know when we've come up with something. I'm thinking maybe an alternate dimension or—
• Steve: Just build something with sturdy walls and competent guards, then we'll talk.
• Tony: I'll let you know. Got an address I can send your invite to?
• Steve: Nice try. See you next crisis.

edited 5th Jul '16 2:41:19 PM by TobiasDrake

Wasn't part of the reason why Bucky was able to break out of that cell was because the power went out? The adrenaline rush from being brainwashed wasn't the only factor, otherwise he could've broken out whenever he wanted.

We shouldn't forget that Zemo is a trained operative. And in the reality of the MCU, trained operatives have the ability to sneak in more or less everywhere.

I think he had the right information since he stole it from the real dude.

He probably stole the real doctor's ID when he killed him. Someone who actually knew the doctor personally probably would have been able to spot the difference, but there wasn't anyone. Then he passed through whatever metal detectors or high-tech weapon scanners they had (because his only weapon was a book), and he was in. Fingerprint scanners or those DNA scanners Project Insight was using would have stopped him, but that's a bit too paranoid for the UN.

And I definitely got the impression that the cell was weakened when the power went out. Which does bring up the question why it didn't have its own backup unit, but you can't think of everything.

The Marvel Universe is especially funny because, unlike DC heroes who tend to rely on the same prisons everyone knows don't work, the heroes there have a whole bunch of specialized and supposedly unbeatable prisons for supervillains based on everything from shrinking tech to alternate dimensions that still utterly fail to keep the villains contained.

edited 5th Jul '16 8:59:38 PM by KnownUnknown

I guess... at least they keep trying new things?

"being that Zemo's grand plan would have done nothing if there happened to be more or less of the team at the base."

Pretty much, for all the babbling about him breaking the avenger, the acords did the heavy job for him, which is obb considering it wasnt the main reason, the part where Bucky,Cap and Tony are there feel almost the plot giving everything for him in a plate.

Can I go back to the 'Why didn't Bucky cover his ears?' thing for a moment? Because I think I have an explanation. Those words aren't a magic incantation; they work via conditioned response. During that flashback, they put him in the Chair, and then as soon as the headpiece comes off, someone starts saying the words. That detail is important, because it shows he's still in restraints that he definitely can't break out of. It seems reasonable to assume that's how the process always went: Chair, Words, Response (ready to comply), and then the restraints come off. I think on a subconscious level he would think Words+restraints=can't escape. So when Zemo started saying those words to him while was trapped, those conditioned responses would come back. So whether Bucky was capable of breaking those restraints or not is irrelevant, because he wouldn't have tried.

Which to me is even more horrifying, because it makes me wonder how many times prior to Winter Soldier he might have had a chance to escape. And not taken it because even if the thought occurred to him, he didn't believe it was really possible.