Diversity and Representation in Media

While the London Romeo and Juliet casting is getting all the attention, absolutely nobody seems to be raising the same objections to Toheeb Jimoh (Ted Lasso) playing king Henry V opposite Ian McKellen's Falstaff.

Especially noticeable as the two productions are staged one minute's walk apart, both on St Martin's Lane.

Perhaps it would enrage them more if Henry and Falstaff were kissing.

I was about to comment on the Romeo and Juliet thing but realized I was talking about Beauty and the Beast insteadd. OH and making the Beast neurodivergent and or a Nazi is ALSO something people do and it always turns out awful.

If the Beast is a beast because he is a beast and he also happens to be neurodivergent, then that could very easily have bad connotations but would not necessarily be inherently wrong (assuming this in this case it would just be a neurodivergent actor playing them and some of that informing the performance).

If, however, the beast is a beast because he is neurodivergent, then obviously that would be awful (I mean, maybe it would be a general message to treat neurodivergent people better, but is that really the best story to do that with?).

Edited by king15 on Apr 13th 2024 at 7:20:40 PM

There are not many ways to make a Nazi sympathethic (which is not the same as charismatic something possible like Hans Landa, Elsa Schneider or Dereck Vinyard) but to make it so you probably would need to show that he was placed under that situation by force from the regime not because of his own choosing or that he despite having those believes at first and following its ideology eventually regrets it and rejects it (long before the defeat of course) and redeems himself somehow.

It is true, however, that not all members of the Nazi Party and/or Hitler supporters both inside or outside Germany were monsters and in fact there's a reason why the horrors of the Holocaust were hidden even from the main public, as the Nazi leadership knew this would cause outrage even among the deeply anti-Semitic German population of the time. Not that the previous anti-Semitism and general racism and homophobia among other things was not abhorrent in itself, however once the crimes of the Nazis were made public a lot of people who supported Hitler regret it and denounce him (of course how "ethical" is that you agree with racial segregation and different forms of discrimination of Jews but not to kill them is another matter). This is something similar on how people admired figures like Vladimir Putin or Nayid Bukele on modern time and still do but change their mind after they show their true colors (and some still are in denial about it).

That's why Holocaust denialism is a thing. No one sees themselves as the bad guys. Even people who follow extremist ideologies like far-left, far-right, religious or racial radicals etc. don't see themselves as evil, quite the opposite, they see themselves as the good guys heroically fighting the true villains.

That said, some movies mostly the ones that deal with neo-Nazism, has manage to really show very realistically and very humanly how this works and affects mentally both their followers and their love ones like American History X, Romper Stomper, The Infiltrator and The Believer. The easy way was to make them mustache twirling villains whilst the movies choose instead to show the human side (and all the different societal, economic, mental and even structural reasons that caused them to go there) without not denouncing racism and showing both the hypocresy and monstruoisty of white supremacism.

Because in real life many people who is into this extreme ideologies are normally disenfranchise people pretty much abandoned by the system, angry, living in poverty and exploited by corrupt radical leaders for their own gain against a system that failed them (another example but with Islamic radicals is The Kingdom).

Bottomline, yes a Romeo and Juliet plot can work with this content but requires someone very talented.

Edited by TVGuy on Apr 13th 2024 at 9:24:51 AM

The reason a Romeo and Juliet plot doesn't work with a Nazi and Jewish person — especially if it's in Holocaust era Germany — is the grossly unequal power dynamic.

Romeo and Juliet doesn't work when one can have the other sent to a death camp.

Trying to contrive some way to make the unequal power dynamic equal would also create unfortunate implications, like implying that the marginalized group being genocided is not that marginalized. In the above example, that would mean such a work might end up becoming an Antisemitic dog whistle.

With an interracial couple like a white Romeo and black Juliet or vice versa at least, you can in theory ignore the racial dynamics.

But you can't ignore the dynamics when one of them is a member of the hate group committing genocide against the other member's group.

Edited by M84 on Apr 14th 2024 at 5:02:16 PM

A Nazi/Jew tragic romance might, possibly, work, maybe. It would bear basically zero resemblance to Romeo and Juliet.

My idea would be almost the opposite of tvguy's. Pre-camps, The Nazi starts out with no problem with what he's doing, and suffers no consequences for openly saying that one Jewish girl is cute. Racists and fascists are hypocrites, of course, so everyone just laughs it off. Then as the plot goes on, everything starts getting worse, he is forced to confront both his feelings for the girl and the horrors of his regime, and at the end, depending on exactly how cynical you want to be, either they're both dead having accomplished nothing and not so much as kissed, or he did in fact manage to save her but died in the attempt. I'd also probably make it so that either the girl never finds out about his affections or it actively causes problems for her because it gets her singled out.

And why does the Nazi even have to be the protagonist?

Because I couldn't think of a way to have a Jewish girl falling for a literal Nazi without her being a complete idiot. And having the Jew as the protagonist without her falling for the Nazi just makes it a stalker movie.

...which actually would probably have more merit than a real romance story, now that I think on it.

A Soviet armyman and a Nazi armyman fall in love while in the frontlines, perhaps they are separated from their units in the wild and forced to work together to survive.

A Brokeback Mountain kind of story unfolds. But what happens when thet have to go back?

That can work especially because both regimes were deeply homophobic.

We all agree that a Romeo and Juliet plot with Nazis most likely won't work because of the power dynamic.

However a Beauty and the Beast may work, especially because the Fairy Tale is pretty dark to begin with disregarding how Disney make it. For example the Beast is a monster and a feudal lord he can have the Beauty kill on a wimp, and she's not there willing she's a prisoner. She manage to change his heart and see the very very buried human part deep inside and making it come out, which may work with a Nazi overlord. Weird no one thought it already AFAIK.

In fact some versions of the story are already terrifying, like the Czeck version -one of my favorites-.

Their best bet would probably be fleeing to Britain (away from the Nazi invaders), and even there they'd still be arrested (for being gay, and that's assuming they aren't arrested due to their reflective sides), but at least they wouldn't be executed.

If very well written and done as sensitively as possible, that idea you suggested could be a very interesting novel. Then again, I think it would be very, very hard to write sensitively. Given the atrocities committed by the Axis during the invasion of the USSR, and then the subsequent atrocities committed by the Russians/soviets during the invasion of Berlin (though presumably this story would start before the latter), it could be very hard to write convincingly and non-offensively, though certainly not impossible.

Edited by king15 on Apr 14th 2024 at 6:58:19 PM

I mean, both Jo Jo Rabbit and The Sound of Music do feature romantic or semi-romantic undertones where one is Nazi affiliated. An actual concentration camp guard and prisoner definitely wouldn't work, but seeing a romance begin just before party affiliation is made might be an interesting take. Romeo and Juliet does have the subtext of them trying to discard the toxic family traditions.

So basically, writing a love story between the oppressed and the oppresser is at best deeply problematic and not worth doing?

Correct! So probably best to just avoid it like it's radioactive.

I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before in this thread (if so apologies for being repetitive) but I think that the Nina Zenik and Mathias Helvar romance in Six of Crows is subtextually a Jew-Nazi romance. I think it "works" because Leigh Bardugo is Jewish.

Basically, Mathias is a witch-hunter from this Scandinavian-inspired country and Nina is a "grisha"", a type of magic-user (basically think of X-Men's mutants but with Elemental Powers). The Nazi thing is made pretty explicit when Matthias' country is alluded to starting what sound a lot like slave labor camps.

Mathias comes across as akin to a brainwashed Hitler youth member and gradually overcomes his prejudices. And even at his worst is more like Obliviously Evil and doesn't have the sadism of his peers.

And there's some "moral balance" in that Nina is sort of akin to a Soviet political officer (that's my take anyway). And like Matthias, is basically a nicer person than "should be" doing that kind of job.

I've become aware through the Shadow and Bone tv adaptation of the Jewish references in the story.

So like the Grisha seem to have this despised middle-man position that Jews have had historically in a lot of places. And their impressment into the military is supposed to be reminiscent of Jewish conscription in Tsarist Russia.

I also get the impression that Barduo might be making a joking reference to liberal Zionism (coupled with stereotypes about patriotic Soviet characters) in how Nina's friends find it somewhat annoying how patriotic she is about "Glorious Ravka" as well as her belief that all grisha should join and fight for Ravka.

Edited by Hodor2 on Apr 14th 2024 at 1:07:08 AM

I'd point out that Romeo and Juliet are disaffected teenagers who aren't particularly invested in their family feud beyond obligation and social pressure; one has family in the Baum-Gruppe, the other is obligated to join Hitlerjugend , Friar Lawrence is probably affiliated with Weiße Rose or something, etc. But none of that sounds interesting, whether by reframing the original play in a new light or by making history more personal. It's just a detached aesthetic exercise in sanding the edges from Backdrop 5 until it fits into Story J.

I think the issue also is what romeo and juliet have become of sorts.

like for what I get the original play was a tragedy of sorts of young impulsiveness as the fact they were more invested in keepign the feud. But it quickly become into this "love cross it all" idea that people in love can overcome power dynamics and prejudice. not surprising it can come as overly romantic or downright glurgy

One thing worth noting: Romeo & Juliet is actually not the Trope Maker for its genre.

It's actually a Genre Deconstruction of a formulaic genre of plays that existed at the time and mad many of the same tropes. However, it's ironically also the most famous example of the genre it was a deconstruction of.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Apr 14th 2024 at 10:45:28 AM

Thanks to this video by Youtuber Hats Off Media, I learned that the creator of Johnny Bravo is a Filipino-American man named Van Partible.

Unfortunately, I also learned from this video that he and the rest of the original crew was fired after the first season (@30:07).

It was nice to learn he returned to produce "A Johnny Bravo Christmas" in the fourth season. But nonetheless, it's an interesting bit of trivia to learn one of the most iconic Cartoon Network shows of the 1990s and 2000s was created by an Asian-American man.

Edited by windleopard on Apr 15th 2024 at 12:31:10 PM

Amusingly, Van has stated that Johnny is actually successful with women, we just don't see those stories because its funnier to see him fail.

I mean, there's that CN short where he and Velma managed to be a perfect pair but they had to separate due to commitment issues.

"My Glasses, My Glasses, I can't be seen without my glasses!" from that short is still in my head to this day as a 32 year old.

It was also my mom's favorite of the cartoon cartoons. Especially the one where Johnny dates an Antelope and has to fight her Exboyfriend Lobster.

My Nana (RIP) had a theory that Johnny Bravo was named after the Brady Bunch episode where the oldest kid becomes a musician and changes his name to Johnny Bravo. I have never seen Brady Bunch so I've just had to take her word for it. Be a weird bit of trivia if true.