Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans

Never said all of it was, but some parts of the system proclaimed itself to be so, because meritocracy is always used as a quick way to help justfy atrocities pr for rich folks to rub in the fact their "merit"(money) into poorer folks faces even though a true meritocracy money should not count as power.

And we already know Tekkadan represents Imperial Japan in a not the best handled symbolic means, and the mafia is well, Italy. Then that leaves Mcgillis as.....

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 11th 2019 at 6:48:44 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

You're still condemning McGillis base on things other characters have done, rather than what McGillis was doing. There's nothing to suggest that McGillis isn't completely sincere about his desire to create an actually meritocratic society. Just because other people have used claims of meritocracy to justify atrocities doesn't mean that McGillis is.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Because Real Life Meritocracy fundamentally don't work and are easiky exploited. Now if this was a more fantastical or idealistic series, sure it working that way sounds fine, but in a more cynical and realistic series like IBO the reality is it's a fundamentally broken and easily exploited system by the elite that makes current Gjallahorn seem benign by comparison and Macky is too trapped in his fantasy of strength and power as absolutes to see this.

Now if say an alien God came down, granted his wish for the world to work that way without being easily corrupted, sure I could buy that, but IBO isn't that fantastical.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 11th 2019 at 7:32:49 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Even accepting the premise that "meritocracies are bad" (which I don't), that makes McGillis a tragically misguided idealist at worst, not a villain.

Honestly, though, the suggestion that a meritocracy would axiomatically be worse than a corrupt, authoritarian regime ruled by a council of aristocratic dynasties feels super gross to me.

Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 11th 2019 at 10:46:31 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Attempting/Killing his friends to achieve it is what makes him a villain, especially when he smugly lets his rapist "dad" go scott free beyond taking away his power, and the man ends up enjoying a comfortable life as we see in season 2 as he spills the beans on Mackys origins. Or emotionally manipulating Gaelio into consenting to the experiments on Ein so he can make his own AV that won't backfire when he plans to pilot Bael. Then before he kills him smugly taunts him about everything including marrying his sister.

This is not the actions of a hero, these are the actions of a villain. A misguided, tragic one who never grew up and is less emotionally stable than his kid fiance, but a villain nonetheless. It's why Anti-Villain is a thing.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Here's the thing about that: despite being pleasant folks who are kind to their friends and fun to hang out with, Gaelio and Carta are bad people. They don't merely passive benefit from the fucked up status quo, they actively dedicate themselves to going out and enforcing that status quo at gunpoint. They're part of the system keeping their jackboots on humanity's collective neck — and they're not merely cogs in the machine, they're high-ranking members who have the pull to make changes to the system if they wanted to, and they refuse to.

Killing Carta and Gaelio was a moral good because Carta and Gaelio were evil people who were actively championing the cause of a corrupt, evil system that was directly and indirectly responsible for untold human suffering.

The fact that he killed them through deceit and betrayal is what makes him an Anti-Hero instead of a more conventional hero, but it doesn't make him a bad person.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Wow, saying Rustal is iredeemable evil is one thing, but calling Carta and Gaelio anywhere close to it is plainly stupid. Though I guess there is nothing less that have to be done to excuse Chocolate man.

Well, I will back off from this discussion for time being, it's getting too ridiculous.

No they aren't. Carta's job was superfluous to the point she was actively trying to prove herself worthy of her position she felt was unearned when she finally had the chance, when Tekkadan invaded no less, and always followed the code of conduct as taught to her by the rules. She was an insecure woman who tried to live up to the responsibility she was gven, and Mcgillis sether up to fail. Even when she came to earth to deal with them, she followed the laws that gave her permission to act as she did, and her worse act was, trying to kill the enemy commander, and who had a non combatant subordinate jump in the way of the attack. Something completely out of her control.

Not helping matters is her dying father entrusted her to an evil pedo who saw her as a tool for power.

Gaelio was all for one day reforming Gjallahorn, but like Mcgillis he always assumed he'd have fo wait and move up the ranks before bringing the reformation he hoped for. He's definitely a flawed person who made mistakes, but he's not this evil person just because of the position he was born in. Hell his belief in following Mcgillis words, who was always setting him up for failure by holding off on what they should do, because he planned to backstab Gaelio to take said position for himself.

These aren't moral good actions, these are dick moves and neither is nowhere near the evilly stupid moron that is IOK. Hell Rustal is a better person than fucking IOK, because IOK is that much of a self-absorbed idiot dragging everyone down with him.

People like FUCKING IOK, Rustal, and Macky's adoptive daddy are the actually morally bad people who deserve something bad. And y'know what, the morally reprehensible pedophile gets to live to enjoy life and enjoy more blonde boys.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 11th 2019 at 8:33:24 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Mate, I've been really patient with you, but do not insult me again. Thank you.

No, her worst act was fighting in defense of Gjallarhorn, a corrupt and evil system that oppresses the bulk of humanity so that the privileged few (Carta included) can live in power and luxury. She wholeheartedly bought into the idea that Gjallarhorn was the pinnacle of humanity and the current system was both right and just. She believed it so thoroughly that she was willing to fight and die in defense of that system.

That makes her evil, even if she's also an insecure, honorable young woman simply trying to live up to the expectations of her society and her peers.

Gaelio was onboard for ridding Gjallarhorn of the egregious corruption and incompetence that threatened its ability to enforce the status quo and keep the rest of the solar system firmly in line. He was not in favor of changing the status quo to allow average people to live with basic human dignity. He fully buys into Gjallarhorn's cultural attitude towards human debris and people with cybernetics — in the later stages of season one, he's yelling at Tekkadan for being "space rats" and considers them less human because they use A-V systems. The big moral dilemma he faces with Ein is "should I allow a man I purportedly care about to undergo a medical procedure that offers the only chance he has of living as anything but a limbless torso floating in a life support tank, which he has enthusiastically requested after being informed of the opportunity? Because that would make him subhuman scum!" (In season two, Gaelio does soften on his anti-cybernetics stance, but it's also made explicit that he's rejected any ethical standards in favor of single minded focus on revenge against McGillis at all costs.)

tldr, supporting an evil cause is evil. Carta and Gaelio are evil because they support Gjallarhorn, and Gjallarhorn is evil because they're authoritarian shitheads. The fact that they aren't as personally loathsome as Iok or nakedly power-hungry as Rustal does not make them good people.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

No they fight for Gjallahorn because they believe in what Gjallahorn is supposed to stand for: keeping peace in the Solar System aka what it was originally started to do. Carta doesn't feel up to her duties and is both kept in her position and seen as a tool by pedo creep, this is literally forced nepotism where she's not even allowed to say no because of the man she's been entrusted too. Gaelio follows Mcgillis footsteps because he thinks he knows the best path to reforming Gjallahorn and WHOOPS nope he's just using him and will bang his sister and kill everyone he's close to.

So Gaelio has flaws like any human being and realizes exactly why Tekkadan would do what they did, which is why he apologizes to Mika in season 2. He even states he didn't know why people would do that to themselves willingly in season 1. He needed a perspective flip, and that is entirely separate from his justified revenge against the villainous Mcgillis. Of which Tekkadan has happil engaged in revenge themselves to the point they threw away their close ties to the mafia to join a coup they didn't believe in to be "King of Mars!".

What was done to Ein, by scientists who work forMcgillis no less, and that he'd be nothing but a weapon to be used for the rest of his life since he can't live outside a mobile suit now, is precisely why he is justified in feeling wrong for trying to save someone he cared about, whose transformation also made Ein happy he'll be a tool for the rest pf his life and completely off his rocker.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 11th 2019 at 9:24:13 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

One of you really needs to let this go, or this will never end. Its been like 5 pages now.

I absolutely cannot help but adore handsome 2D boys

I can see the argument that Carta isn't evil, she's just naive enough to believe that Gjallarhorn are the good guys. I don't necessarily agree, but I can at least understand the position.

Gaelio doesn't have the same excuse, though. He doesn't live in a bubble like Carta does — he's been in the field and seen the horrific poverty that the average person lives in first hand. He's had to deal with Gjallarhorn officers that are corrupt assholes like their Mars Branch commander. He knows that Gjallarhorn aren't all honorable warriors defending humanity and the people who fight against Gjallarhorn aren't all evil terrorists and criminals. But when push comes to shove, he sides with Gjallarhorn without question, despite knowing that a lot of them are assholes and a lot of their opponents are innocent.

Honestly, Gaelio strikes me as someone who doesn't consider abstract ideals, just personal relationships. Gjallarhorn is good because they treat him with respect and let him live a fancy lifestyle. Tekkadan is bad because they hurt his friends. McGillis is bad because he betrayed his trust. Nevermind the reasons why anyone does acts the way they do — Gjallarhorn makes him feel important and happy, while Tekkadan and McGillis make him feel angry and sad, and that's what matters to him.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

But Gaelio never acted like that.

While at the same time trying to justify Mc Gillis's shady actions. He's a much worse person then Gaelio.

Edited by Envyus on Oct 11th 2019 at 1:33:45 PM

A worse person?

See what I mean about demonization? That is essentially what the entire pro-ending argument boils down to. The ones who are defending the ending are trying to do so by demonizing McGillis and Tekkadan. You are trying to make them hem out to be the real villains while Gjallarhorn was apparently a noble group just trying to defend themselves.

And I find it funny how you refer to McGillis as an Anti-Villain, then go on to claim that he is a pure psychopath. At least keep your arguments consistent?

Edited by MasterN on Oct 13th 2019 at 4:33:01 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

Okay, who exactly said this?

The big problem with any attempt to cast McGillis as a hero is that the degree to which he hurts people when he has the chance is inversely proportional to the degree to which they have hurt him - Ein and Carta get the most brutal treatment, while Iznario gets the least. He also does remarkably little to help people once he has power. Consider the start of Season Two, where we see what everyone's been up to since their elevation. Kudelia and Orga have put detailed plans into practice to help their people and give them better futures (with Orga's idea of 'helping his people' being slightly more worrying, but hey, the lad's trying). What's Mc Gillis doing as the head of a massively powerful Gjallarhorn fleet? Not much, apparently, except fantasising about how to rise even further. Taking Isurugi under his wing is nice, but Orga and Kudelia are doing so much more with so much less. Certainly, his revolution contains no real plan for fixing the world other than some vague Darwinian rhetoric - Orga sticks with him to advance his own ambitions, and then tries to betray him when it turns out he's running off nothing but empty bluster.

McGillis may not be evil, per se, just an emotionally-stunted manchild cursed to turn specialist competence into an illusion of generalist competence, but there's very little evidence that he's good, only the hopes and ambitions that other people project onto him. He's a largely destructive force in the plot, a dangerous temptation that overpromises and underdelivers and leaves a trail of largely undeserving human misery in his wake without seriously holding the powerful to account.

What's precedent ever done for us?

The other way to look at it is that he's using the least viable force against everyone in his way. Carta and Gaelio have to die for McGillis' plans to succeed because he has no other way of ousting them. Iznario gets to live comfortably in exile because as long as he's no longer the head of the Fareed family, McGillis doesn't really care what happens to him. I'd honestly be more suspicious of McGillis' motives if he had made a special point of seeking revenge on people he felt had particularly wronged him. But the fact that he doesn't suggests to me that he's not actually driven by revenge — he legitimately just wants to reform the system.

The fact that he's so hyperfocused on that goal is, I think, a big part of the reason why people see him as villainous. Not because he's actually bad, but because he's almost inhumanly principled. He murders his friends while letting his enemies live in luxury, because he doesn't let his personal feelings sway his actions. Normally that kind of impartiality is reserved for narcissists and psychopaths, who treat everyone around them equally (as tools to be used when useful and disposed of when not). McGillis clearly isn't a narcissist or a psychopath (unless you want to argue that he's lying about his real feelings toward his friends, even when it's a soliloquy that no one else is present to hear, or when it's his dying words to one of those friends), but viewing him through that lens is an easier sell than "no, he really was friends with the people he murdered"... and has the added benefit that casting him as the villain (or at least as no better than Rustal and Gaelio) makes the trainwreck of an ending easier to swallow. I just don't think the show justifies that conclusion.

McGillis spends most of his time after season one politicking — he's trying to win over the rest of the Seven Stars so that they'll support his bid for Supreme Mugwump when it comes, while simultaneously fending off attempts by his confirmed rivals (Rustal and Iok) to undercut his authority and damage him in the eyes of his would-be allies by making him look weak. A large part of that is appealing to the more conservative elements of the Seven Stars by not rocking the boat too much... at least, not publicly.

It's not until Gaelio reveals himself to McGillis on Mars that McGillsi realizes that he doesn't have time to slowly accumulate power. If Gaelio goes public, then Gaelio's head is on a platter. He needs to be able to counter that move — and claiming the Bael is the only real option he has there, hoping that the appeal to traditional Gjallarhorn lore will be enough to get them supporting him over Gaelio. It's partially successful, too — the neutral parties at least agree to stand aside, giving McGillis a fighting chance against Rustal and Iok. Had they joined against him he would have had no chance at all.

Of course, the ending goes off the rails and he loses anyway, and Tekkadan goes down with him. But we know that there was disagreement among the staff over that.

He's definitely a destructive force, but given that the world in IBO is so horrific, that's what makes him a good guy. Wanting to burn down the status quo is a good thing when the status quo is evil.

It seems profoundly unfair to blame McGillis for causing misery when his entire motivation was that he saw how much misery the Seven Stars were causing and dedicated his life to ending it, and the only reason he "overpromised and underdelivered" is because he lost. Had he beaten Rustal, then he would have been able to implement the reforms he wanted. And he did have a very real chances of winning — he came within a hair's breadth of it more than once.

Of course, we don't really get any detail on what his new, meritocratic Gjallarhorn would look like, just that it would mean removing the Seven Stars and the political system based on aristocratic families. It's entirely possible that McGillis' Gjallarhorn would just be a different flavor of horrible. But at the bare minimum, you would expect there to be more social mobility — and honestly, the only way you could be worse than the Seven Stars is if you actively started, like, an ethnic cleansing campaign or something, which seems unlikely for McGillis given his rhetoric.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Iznario literally raped him for years and when they interact there's an uncomfortable air between both. Mcgillis even finds reasons to not go home. Not to mention Iznario can easily spill the beans on Macky not being a legitimate heir, which can hamper his goals. Something Rustal uses as the last card to make even the earth defense fleet betray him because he had no legitimacy to him. Since they were only loyal to his position, not his ideals.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 13th 2019 at 7:30:41 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I said.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Iznario is fundamentally a threat to his plans even in exile. So long as he lives he can help destroy whatever plans he has. The fact he also gets to live in comfort and screw over Mcgillis if he wishes just makes it stupider to let him live. While two people who aren't a threat to his goals if he just talked with them get screwed over completely, and made Gaelio into an enemy who seeks to destroy him after his Evil Gloating about Carta's death.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Oct 13th 2019 at 7:58:27 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Sorry, but this kinda stuck out to me.

Why did he need to oust them, let alone kill them? They both were loyal to him and would have follow to the end and back throughout the near entirety of the first season. It took McGillis outright betraying Gaelio and rubbing everything in his face for Gaelio to turn against him. Hell, from what I understand of McGillis plan he could have achieved similar results by marrying Carta and keeping Gaelio in his fold, something neither would have had issue with.

Iznario presents no threat after he's been disgraced and exiled. They only brought him back because they'd given McGillis the boot — Iznario played no part in McGillis getting the boot in the first place.

As for Gaelio and Carta, they were friends with McGillis' public persona, but it's unlikely that they would have been on board with overthrowing the entire social order — which not-so-incidentally would mean overthrowing themselves. Carta certainly would have rejected him out of hand — she's all high and mighty over the honor of Gjallarhorn and her family, there's no way in hell she'd throw that out for him, "secretly" in love with him or not. Gaelio he may have been able to persuade... but maybe not, and he certainly wouldn't have been able to get Gaelio on board with the less savory aspects of the plan. You know, like "kill Carta for being an obstacle".

So from a purely practical standpoint, without considering his personal feelings on them — which is certainly how McGillis was approaching the problem — it made more sense to kill them and be done with it, rather than try to spare them and almost certainly cause problems for himself down the line anyway.

As far as making Gaelio into an enemy — that was straight plot device bullshit. Gaelio surviving wasn't unreasonable (the blow that disables the Kimaris visibly fails to penetrate the cockpit), but doing so without McGillis getting wind of it — and somehow smuggling the family heirloom Gundam into Rustal's possession as well — certainly is. The show doesn't even try to explain it, they just present it fait accompli and hope you don't ask any awkward questions.

Edited by NativeJovian on Oct 13th 2019 at 12:32:55 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Yes he does. That's literally the whole point of finding him and further stampng him out of the organizaton, Because Macky isn't his blood kin his place in Gjallahorn can easily fall apart if the man spilled the beans. Especially in an organization where blood ties determine ones place at the top.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Gaelio despite wanting to be was still not fully against him in season 2. It's mentioned that despite what he says several times earlier in the season, he's not as distant and focused on revenge as he claims to be. An effect of him being unable to bury his emotions to become purely cold.

He refuses or decides not to take action against Mc Gillis beyond being Rustal's informant about his true nature at several points in the season. When he finally does confront Mc Gillis after his rebellion, he tell Mc Gillis the reason he did not just straight up expose him off the bat was because he wanted to try and understand his intentions, and that he might has still sided with Mc Gillis if he felt his actions were for the right reasons.

No Mc Gillis says he felt they were weakening his resolve, which is why he decided to get rid of them. His inability to trust them or understand happiness, caused him to make a blunder despite that fact that they would have supported him if he had just talked to the two of them.

Edited by Envyus on Oct 13th 2019 at 11:03:36 AM

Most of that becomes a nonissue by simply choosing not to reveal his entire hand. Convince Carta in joining him in upholding Agnika Kaieru's legacy and making a shiny Gjallarhorn they can be proud of. If killing Carta is a problem with Gaelio then maybe don't create a plan that involves just that. In the end those two became obstacles because Macky choose to view them that way.

As for Gaelio's survival and Kimaris, I chalked that up to the same reason he left Iznario alive. Shortsightedness. As far he was concerned Gaelio was dead and the only Gundam McGillis' eye was on Bael. He won and nothing was interfering with his grand plan, until something actually did.