Wonder Woman Movie

6xIt might not have been clear, so sorry for that, but you're conflating a general you for people who make those arguments with the people posting here.

Even though you have actually said he doesn't care about the people he saves, I proved you wrong, and then you ignored that and jumped onto another argument so you could move the goalposts.

Let's just pretend that never happened. It'll make it easier for you come up with a counterargument on how I'm still straw-manning people that I won't care about.

edited 31st Jul '16 12:57:41 PM by Ekuran

no, is waste of time, we know he save the family, is just conservation of detail, I mean you can critique the symbolsim as to on the nose or seen more bend in that but he said that family, period

Yeah, with X men is more of them saving themselve that being rescute team, also we have to said nobody praise hero for saving people, is more a thing to expect for them, and people giving flak was because superman is superman

edited 31st Jul '16 12:59:10 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

This description nowadays easily applies to any superhero team including the Justice League and the Avengers. Hell, I think I've seen more squabbling between Steve and Tony than I have between Scott and Logan in the films.

- They didn't save Kelly. He escaped Magneto himself, fled to their mansion for shelter and the died on their watch.

- To use your and alliterator's logic, the scene where Logan saves Bobby and Rogue isn't about him saving them. It's more about him going berserk on the soldiers. Ditto Mystique shooting Magneto.

- Taking the bullet for the main villain is not what I'd call heroic.

So if we take all this into account, the single big moment from the X-movies that places emphasis on saving people is the Quicksilver scene.

Lighten the mood, guys.◊

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

They took in a man who hated mutants to a fault and tried to save his life. They didn't have to take him in.

I'm pretty sure that scene is still about him saving them.

Saving the President and everyone else Magneto was about to kill, completely defying her previously established allegiance.

There's more:

• Charles letting Magneto go to save the police officer's lives.
• Wolverine's gradually defrosting papa bear-ness toward Rogue, despite having no genuine reason to stick around or protect her - even standing between her and Magneto at one point.
• Rogue zapping Pyro to keep him from killing the police officers.
• The X-Men stepping in to defend the cure facility from Magneto's army.
• Kitty running in to save the kid from Juggernaut
• Angel specifically swooping in to rescue his father.
• Films like The Wolverine and Origins Wolverine are entirely focused on that character, whose amorality is a prominent part of his character - even then, Wolverine saving the X-Kids and not-Famke Jensen, also making the helicopter pilot turn away so that Sabertooth would stop shooting like a madman.
• If we count Deadpool, Colossus steps in to keep Deadpool from torturing Francis.
• Magneto saving his coworker.

edited 31st Jul '16 3:05:25 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

...Why are we talking about saving people in a movie where the hero will probably kill a ton of soldiers while fighting for the side she has chosen?

I'm really doubtful that Wonder Woman of all people is going to slaughter what might as well be defenseless infants in comparison just because they're soldiers who happen to oppose her. I mean, we don't see her kill anyone in the trailer, she's mostly just destroying guns and taking them away from the soldiers with her lasso.

Main thing was "people will get mad because Diana kills people, just like they got mad because Superman killed someone." X-Men was just a tangent.

It's not just because of that.

Yeah, Diana will probably murder people left and right - that's not a problem (so to speak). Obviously the movie's not out yet. But if there's already criticism of the DCCU being too dark and heroes not seeming all that heroic, a war film where Diana drops bodies and doesn't really stop to save anybody isn't going to alleviate that.

Eh, Diana's brute strength is bound to kill at least a few people the way she's fighting. There's a point 2 minutes 10 seconds in where Diana is about to slice open a soldier's chest with her sword. We see her tear through a pillar moments after. I'd be more surprised if she didn't kill anyone and only disabled others throughout the film.

We didn't see Batman kill anyone in the BVS trailer either.

edited 31st Jul '16 5:15:46 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Clark saves plenty of lives over the course of both movies, the thing is more that each rescue is met with something stopping it from being pure triumph. So it's not that Superman is not acting heroic, it's that it doesn't let him feel heroic:

• First seen rescuing the oil rig workers, both forging a path by ripping off doors and preventing the rig from collapsing before they could evacuate. Forced to stay behind as the rig collapsed around him, the others likely believe he was killed.
• Pulled the school bus out of the water. Neighbors start asking questions, talking about divine intervention. Mitigated later, as Pete evidently became his friend because of the rescue.
• Saved a waitress friend from being groped (or worse) by the trucker, which is still a moral act. Refrains from starting a fight and just walks away drenched in beer.
• Protected soldiers during the Smallville fight. Plenty of soldiers still died. Mitigated as Colonel Hardy acknowledged Superman as being on their side.
• Stopped a family from getting fried by Zod's heat vision. Had to kill Zod to do so and was emotionally broken by the act.
• Rescues Lois and, in the Ultimate Edition, stops a drone strike from obliterating the compound. Is blamed for intervening in a local conflict.
• Rescues a child from a burning building, is being worshipped by the crowd as he tries to be gentle and reassuring.

Note that these are direct acts saving individuals and not just stopping the end of the world and saving Earth's entire population whether or not they know it, of which he does so multiple times as well.

Anything else is just part and parcel of not just comic book movies but big scale blockbusters. Big action scenes breaking out in populated areas. Vehicles used as blunt weapons. Private property getting demolished.

On to Wonder Woman, she is a soldier in battle. She will act with necessary force to protect lives, but will refrain from unnecessary killing. The scene in the trailer of her sword in her dress, suggesting she is going to kill a German general, there's a good chance she won't go through with it.

You are still making a Straw Man argument, arguing against things other people have said and not us. If a post responding to us was not about our arguments, then what was the point of it?

No, you didn't "prove me wrong." You posted an example and I quite clearly responded to your post: Telling citizens to get inside is not comforting them. It's telling them "Hey, get inside and away from all of this fucking danger!"

(Also, asking someone "Hey, you okay?" is not the same thing as comforting them either. It's, like, the bare minimum of talking to them.)

And, just to prove you wrong again, I never said he didn't care about the people he saves. I said he seems not to care and then went on to write "He saves them, but then...I don't know, there's no scene that actually shows him as actively liking people."

Now let's look at what you wrote again:

Huh. None of us said that he "never saved anyone" or that he "didn't save anyone personally" or that he's "never shown to care about anyone before or after he saves them." I mean, the last is clearly wrong since he does show his care about Lois after he saves her.

It's just you appear to be twisting the arguments we are making into different arguments you can easily topple, i.e. Straw Men.

Here are the arguments that are being made:

1. Unlike, say, Spider-Man and the Avengers, MOS Superman is not shown personally saved very many people. Note: "not very many" is not the same as "none." He's shown saving a few people, but the films don't go into him saving people that much, not like the Spider-Man or Avengers films did. Hell, even Batman in the Dark Knight movies saves a lot more people personally than Superman does.
2. When he does save people personally, he doesn't appear to interact with them or he interacts with them very sparing and without actually seeming to want to talk to them. He saves the girl from a fire, but when everyone comes forward to thank you, he flies off. And he goes to save the family from the flood, but the only thing we see is him hovering there in the sky. We don't even see him save them. This is part of Snyder's problem previously stated when he makes "moments" and not "scenes." Superman hovering is a moment. Superman saving someone is a scene.

The only person he saves and then talks to personally is Lois. Again, even Batman is better in this regard: when he saves Martha, a woman he doesn't know at all, he talks to her and reassures her. Batman is better at saving people then Superman is.

edited 31st Jul '16 8:11:31 PM by alliterator

Agree. Compare the rescues in those movies to the Christopher Reeve, DCAU, comics (including Man of Steel, Birthright and Secret Origins), and the near end of that Injustice games; all those times Superman went out to save the day gives off a positive tone that screams it was the right thing to do and Superman knows it with an optimistic wink and flys off to help out the next problem he runs into.

The Snyder Superman does a lot of heroic rescues, but they seemed to be undermine by some cynical afterthought that negates his action being the right thing to do. This pretty much contradicts the whole point of Superman who is made to be an all powerful being who just wants to help.

Points that does bug me a little with how Superman is portrayed. I was more forgiving to his portrayal in Man of Steel as being his first time and this is more in lines to his Golden Age portrayal which will evolve into his more Silver Age attitude as the lovable hero who enjoys saving people and present a friendly atmosphere around them. If only that was the case with Bvs S, but a las it was moody Superman again instead of the Adorkable one I thought will show up after Man of Steel hint at that portrayal in the end.

As good as those moments in the film are, I prefer a montage of scenes with Superman going around the world saving lives, stopping crime and preventing disasters while enjoying such accomplishments completely ignoring the criticism he receives.

. . . So where are we in the Wonder Woman discussion again? Oh yeah her killing. Kind of weird how this is starting to become the common trend with DC Heroes in this universe. We got a Superman who snaps necks, a Batman who is willing to murder a guy just because he have super powers, the Suicide Squad (then again those are villains) and now Wonder Woman (though it makes sense for her as she is in a war). I don't think she will kill a lot and may showcase her heroism, but she will most likely kill dudes in this film given the track record of these movies.

It's a trend in most comic book movies really. Almost all of the Avengers/MCU heroes have shown a willingness to kill if necessary. Ditto many of the film X-Men.

In the MCU it's less noticeable because most of the heroes featured thus far did not have a Thou Shall Not Kill in the comics either for the most part.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."

that wasn't always the case. The Avengers had a strict no kill rule initially and at one point it was canon that Steve Rogers never actually killed anyone in WW 2. There's a story where Clint divorces Bobbi because she refused to save the man who raped her (yeah, Clint can be a dick sometimes). There's another where Steve splits the Avengersnover killing the Supreme Intelligence.

Diana grew up in a warrior culture.

Her not killing is gonna be silly.

Killing random soldiers is ridiculously unnecessary. She's basically a goddess, they're puny mortals, there's really no need for it.

I could honestly see her resuscitating an enemy soldier early in the film.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

We also don't what her capabilities will be exactly in this movie, nor what kinds of situations that she will be put in. So it's too early to make any judgments one way or the other.

Oh and BTW Superman has killed in the comics before, repeatedly. Including famously killing General Zod.

He hasn't killed "repeatedly." He's killed a few times under extreme duress. Saying that he's killed "repeatedly" makes it sound like he just kills willy-nilly.

And the issue where Superman kills Zod is more infamous than it is famous, since it was John Byrne's last issue and he wanted to force Superman to kill someone, no matter the consequences, even when it didn't make any sense. (The Zod he killed was already depowered and trapped on the moon of a lifeless Earth.)

edited 1st Aug '16 10:11:27 AM by alliterator

-chirp-

edited 1st Aug '16 1:47:04 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

I seriously want to see how the filmmakers depict Diana under a gas attack, as you can't really have a World War I film without at least mentioning that aspect of the conflict. Being a metahuman, Diana's body will probably react differently to gas than normal humans. Batman Begins style fear effects?

Tying back to my old query on villains she will face in the film, kind of make me wish that they depict Dr. Poison in this film in some way.

x4 Yeah and the Hulk is a cannibal as well as rapist in the Ultimate line of comics, so we shouldn't be surprised when we see the monster eats and rapes the shit out of Black Widow's corpse in the next Avengers movie.

Diana straight up says she's killed before in Bv S. Granted, she specifies "things from other worlds," but still. It's what prompts Superman's "she with you?" quip.

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They

Re: Superman only killing under duress. Jimmy and/or Aquaman beg to differ.◊

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!

Good ol' Superdickery. It was the Buzzfeed of the Silver Age. It intentionally tricks the reader into picking up the comic under the pretense that their favorite hero is becoming evil.

The last act of Superdickery I saw was that crossover movie between Kamen Rider and Super Sentai; honestly the whole Superdickery plot line ruined the story of the movie. Thank god the sequel which involves Space Sheriff Gavan fixed that mistake by making it into a more straight forward team up film.