Formerly G.G.
I mean what is usually considered to be universally seen as evil. Things like Rape, Murder, Theft and Assault for example.
Edited by GAP on Dec 30th 2023 at 12:03:45 PM
"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The issue here is that murder means killing without justification. Same with theft and assault. So the question is what justification(s) do you consider valid ? Also, I think this belongs to the philosophy thread, not here. That is where questions about morality belong.
Edited by Risa123 on Dec 31st 2023 at 12:41:12 PM
Here in Switzerland, killing someone without justification is intentional killing. It only becomes murder if the killer is acting unscrupulously, say if their motive, scope or modus operandi are particularly reprehensible. Neither crime requires direct intent, though; eventual intent ("I knew that my actions could kill a person and I accepted the possibility as tolerable") is sufficient.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Yeah, there also has to be intent, forgot about that. Thought that was not my point in that post. I was demonstrating that defining what counts as murder is not simple.
There is always a justification for murder. How socially acceptable it is makes the difference: Self-defence (or defence of a third party)>>serious emotional reaction>>snuff/crime coverup, for example. Or at least this is how it works in Switzerland.
Regarding the rape vs murder discussion, this is how Switzerland handles it:
- Intentional killing: >5 years of prison.
- Murder: >10 years of prison.
- Manslaughter (here it's about intentional killing): 1-10 years
- Killing on request: 3 years to fine.
- Inducing someone to commit suicide, for low reasons: 5 years to fine.
- Infanticide by mother: 3 years to fine.
- Illicit abortion: 3 or 5 years to fine.
- Abortion w/o consent: 1-10 years
- Rape: 1-10 years
- Sexual coercion: 10 years to fine.
- Defilement (i.e sex with people incapable of articulating consent): 10 years to fine.
(Note that sex with children is not a consent/rape crime here, it's a different category)
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I'd say that with the tricky thing about nailing down a "universal law" is that different societies define crimes differently and also make different exceptions to those rules.
Theft and Murder come to mind as things that are probably universal crimes "on their own terms".
For example, a law against theft like "You generally cannot steal property that rightfully belongs to someone else". But then you have to define what property is, what rightful ownership is, and even what it means to steal.
I'd say there's a few things that are, in practice, largely universal because society either embraces the principle or doesn't exist. For example, a society can't have the attitude that "anyone can murder anyone else for any reason" because that would be highly unstable for society.
Moreover, there's a logical contradiction inherent in that law. It would mean that it's acceptable to Pay Evil unto Evil and therefore murder it not always legal in practice.
The best example I can think of for something that'd be considered a crime in virtually any society is Ronald Clark O'Bryan murder of his own son. To elaborate:
Ronald lost his job for Stealing from the Till. In order to gain money he raised the life insurance on his children. When Halloween rolled around, he gave his children poisoned Pixi Stix and also slipped some into the candy bowls of other children. The goal was for his children to die, then use the fact that other children received poisoned candy to declare he was the victim of a random mass poisoning attack, then collect the insurance money. His son died from poisoning (luckily nobody else at the poisoned candy). He was caught, convicted, and eventually executed by lethal injection.
This crime would be illegal in any society I believe. It's incredibly vile, in a personal sort of way. It's even unnatural in a sense, killing one's own offspring is contrary to human instinct.
In addition, ironically, the fact that it's illegal is part of what makes the motivation for it possible. If it was legal, the insurance companies he's trying to defraud probably wouldn't be able to exist and therefore no crime would have been committed.
"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
A procrastination in of itself
Only because of the fraud aspect of the crime, many societies have historically not regarded children as people but instead as property, which can often be disposed of however the ‘owner’ wishes.
Women and slaves have also historically been treated similarly in law, rape of a women was a crime committed against the man who owned her rather than a crime against her (hence why marital rape has been and I believe remains legal in some places), child abuse and infanticide have often not been regarded as crimes (especially when done to female or mentally disabled children), while Roman was an oddity for having laws against abusing slaves they probably compared more closely to animal abuse law then modern laws against assult or rape.
I remember in either 2005 or 2010 attending a political debate where a major party candidate was arguing for allowing more violence against children by parents. So it’s still a current issue today.
Edited by Silasw on Dec 31st 2023 at 1:30:20 PM
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
[2]. Obviously such laws were not actually enforced, but that is not different from Rome I would expect.
Edited by Risa123 on Dec 31st 2023 at 2:55:58 PM
Oh, bother.
While most of us can be objective when it comes to how evil some crimes are, we're much less objective when it comes to whether certain people are actual victims even when said crimes are inflicted upon them.
Silasw already brought up the Marital Rape License problem.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Defendant who attacked judge in wild courtroom video will face her again in Las Vegas.
Still can't believe how high he jumped over the podium.
The law in the night
This temporary leave is a right for convicted criminals to leave the prison system during certain periods of the year for the purpose of "re-socialization", which predictably also results in a crime rate spike during those days and followed by multiple wanted warrants due to multiple convicts not returning or disobeying the leave rules.
I find this "right" in our legal system to be incredibly stupid. Specially over people convicted multiple times for robbery, theft and trafficking being released.
The criminal who shot the Sgt had multiple accounts of robbery, theft and drug dealing.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
https://www.newsweek.com/justin-mohn-man-decapitates-father-1865488
Well there's someone who killed his own father (also decapitating him); he was later arrested at Fort Indiantown Gap in Pennsylvania.
His video in YT got taken down, but he called on violence against the government and anyone working in federal law enforement while ranting against President Biden, pro-LGBT groups and Black Lives Matter and the woke mobs.
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Foreign Troper
A 17 year old Swatter, allegedly responsible for hundreds of such incidents, has been arrested
https://www.wired.com/story/torswats-swatting-arrest/
Mysterious Fan
Brianna Ghey's killers given life sentences for brutal murder
This week's The Last Podcast on the Left is a true crime round up, a "relaxed fit" before jumping into a big series. I'm still going through it but the two stories they've discussed so far:
Jury finds Jennifer Crumbley guilty of involuntary manslaughter in son's school shooting
School officials had called the Crumbley parents to the school the morning of the shooting after finding violent drawings he had done on a school assignment. He was also caught searching online for bullets at school, watching shooting videos in class and drawing violent images on several other papers.
School officials testified that the parents chose not to take their son home despite the school telling them to get him immediate help, and offering them facilities that provided same-day mental health care services.
The parents told the school they could not take him home because they both had to return to work and that if he left school he would walk home and be alone. School officials, who were worried about his mental health, did not think it was a good idea for him to be alone since they were concerned he was considering suicide.
Denver crypto pastor touted his currency at Zambian church conference instead of attending court hearing
Despite the pending civil case, Regalado has delivered multiple sermons about cryptocurrency and finance topics — including one on Monday and another on Wednesday, according to videos and livestreams on the Zambian church’s Facebook page where he is seen being introduced and speaking on stage.
In Monday’s sermon, Regalado promised to show the crowd how to “make money the Kingdom way,” claiming God had gifted him with a “whole world of cryptocurrency.”
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
Bloomberg has a video on the recent SPF operation against money launderers in Singapore.
Formerly G.G.
Are we making better criminals? I remembered something my teacher asked us about how some criminals leave prison smarter than before. It might have been a hypothetical of course but I sometimes wonder if it is true that we are making better criminals?
"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
Yeah, prison is sometimes described as "crime grad school", especially in the USA. Like, you take a petty thief and you put him in a high-pressure environment with many hardened criminals, they're going to walk out with a lot of new contacts and knowledge on criminal best practices.
Formerly G.G.
That is a good point. What can be done about it?
"Thanos is a happy guy! Just look at the smile in his face!"
For starters, take off the pressure. Treat prisoners with some amount of dignity and ensure their safety. This greatly decreases the power of prison gangs, as the main reasons for joining (safety and "perks") will evaporate. It will also ensure no additional mental trauma will be inflicted on the prisoners, increasing the odds of successful re-entry into the larger society. It's doesn't have to be the freakin' Hilton, but treating prisoners like animals will only worsen the problems.
Access to vocational training also seems like it would have a good effect. Prisoners will be thinking about the future when they'll be free, so giving them options that aren't "do crimes better" can only mean that fewer will choose to continue their life of crime.
There's probably more, but this would make a good start.
In which the Swiss federal court upholds a conviction for serious body injury of a man who hit a burglar with a shotgun, 'cause using lethal force to stop a burglar is way excessive.
(The burglars were after the man's illegal pot plantation, but that was apparently irrelevant in terms of justification. The fact that he had taken one of the burglars prisoner got him another conviction though)
(The characters in my story have a better justification but they also used more direct lethal force, so...)
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Dp because of this entry in Characters.Mindhunter Interview Subjects:
- Red Baron: Known as "The Candy Man" due to managing a candy factory and given free candy to children. And offering free drugs to boys that they called candy. He is the historical inspiration of the Candyman Urban Legend.
I am not up on horror and serial killer lore, but the horror character/urban legend Candyman seems completely different from the serial killer Dean Corll, pace the fact that the latter got nicknamed "Candyman".
The wording's ambiguous enough that the entry might be saying that the film makes that claim, but I haven't seen it.
So, let's hang an anchor from the sun... also my Tumblr
I cannot figure out if there's a real connection between Diddy and the murder of Tupac or if it's just internet gossip.
Never trust anyone who uses "degenerate" as an insult.
I for one think that, morally, Rape is worse than Murder.
For Murder, there can at least be some kind of moral justification, f.e. when somebody wronged by someone of higher power, who can expect no help from the Authorities, kills his tormentor. It doesn't make it right of course, but one can at least understand it.
For Rape, there is no kind of justification whatsoever. It is solely to hurt and degrade the victim.
Edited by Forenperser on Dec 31st 2023 at 9:58:03 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian