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blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#26: Jul 22nd 2015 at 12:52:35 PM

Please, if we must negotiate the terms of the negotiation, we'll never get anywhere!

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#27: Jul 22nd 2015 at 12:54:53 PM

As I said above, the name "China" is so commonly used to refer to mainland China and not Taiwan that it's not really controversial to go along with it. Stuff about Taiwan can go in the East Asia thread, as can any foreign politics stuff involving (mainland) China.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#28: Jul 22nd 2015 at 1:00:45 PM

[up] I see your point - it's just that I figured that a thread involving the China-Taiwan conflict may as well be as objective as the our Israel and Palestine thread - I'm sure somebody would take offense if said thread was simply termed the "Israel thread" or the "Palestine thread".

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#29: Jul 22nd 2015 at 1:05:15 PM

Sure but that's because said thread is about Israel, Palestine and the Israeli-Palestinian relationship. If the thread was just about either Israel or Palestine then nobody (sensible) would get up in arms about it being named simply for its subject.

If you'd like to start a thread on the issue of ROC-PROC and how 'China' is defined then go for it (though really the East Asia thread covers it), but that's not this thread.

edited 22nd Jul '15 1:05:49 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#30: Jul 22nd 2015 at 3:03:17 PM

[up] To be honest, my main personal motivation for adjusting the title would be to simply spite what dreaded pro-China "commentators" and 50 Centers that find this breeding ground in the event that some of them actually manage to plant themselves here. tongue

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#31: Jul 22nd 2015 at 3:13:25 PM

You have to little faith in the mods here, they've managed to keep calm discussion on Israel, Religion, Sexism and active wars. If we do draw the attention of any trolls the mods will deal with them.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#32: Jul 22nd 2015 at 4:14:10 PM

I thought even the PR acknowledges that Taiwan is an independent nation? Their relations are understandably rocky but I thought there was general sovereignty, even if it is only enforced by economic pressure?

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#33: Jul 22nd 2015 at 4:27:53 PM

Taiwan discussion is for the East Asia thread, if anyone wants to ask questions there I'll be happy to answer.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#35: Jul 22nd 2015 at 9:48:58 PM

People who are paid by the Chinese government to post pro-Chinese government stuff online. Not professional propagandists, that is.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#36: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:33:58 PM

Hmm, I remember that the official CCP line on Taiwan is that it's still a "rogue province" and its leaders separatists. Although they seem to be having an increasing influence on the Kuomintang of all people.

As to Chinese history taught in schools , it's not glossed over by the CCP. It's merely presented in a manner considered politically acceptable by the CCP.

edited 22nd Jul '15 10:34:32 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
editerguy from Australia Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
#37: Jul 22nd 2015 at 10:44:32 PM

[up][up]Oh ok, thanks. I'm kind of surprised they bother to do something like that. It's for things like the South China Sea dispute, I suppose?

edited 23rd Jul '15 6:39:19 AM by editerguy

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#38: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:20:32 PM

Could the Uniqlo sex video be China's sexual 'rebound'?

Beijing (CNN) - China wants its citizens to behave.

From water parks to subways, officials are cracking down on what they fear could be a new wave of immoral sex after a video of a couple making love in a Beijing Uniqlo store fitting room became the country's hottest topic.

Now, say the words "Uniqlo" or "fitting room" and you'll get knowing smiles from just about anyone in China who's been on the Internet.

But the government has had enough: The clothing brand's name has been censored from social media.

Authorities have spoken to executives of Chinese Internet companies and chastised their social networks' role in spreading the indecent material, which opposed "core socialist values."

That hasn't stopped streams of visitors taking selfies outside Uniqlo's flagship store in Sanlitun — one of Beijing's trendiest entertainment and shopping areas.

Other places aren't taking any chances. Hundreds of miles away from Beijing, a water park in the megacity of Chongqing hung up signs banning sex in the pool.

One of the banners says, "The Uniqlo incident was scandalous; there was no winner in the fitting room."

Sex 'rebound'?

Li Yinhe, a renowned Chinese sociologist, told CNN a feverish interest in sex scandals could represent a "rebound" after years of repression.

In addition to the Uniqlo tape, a couple was filmed this week kissing and groping each other on a subway in the city of Shenyang, sparking a frenzy of discussion on the Internet.

In June, tongues wagged after a mainland Chinese woman pleaded guilty to an act "outraging public decency" for having had sex on a Hong Kong street, while her partner pleaded not guilty, according to the South China Morning Post.

And a nationwide storm ensued in 2008, when hundreds of nude photos of Hong Kong celebrity Edison Chen with more than a dozen starlets leaked online.

The sociologist suggested part of the appeal has to do with the government's tough stance on porn, which has been banned since the Communist Party took over in 1949.

"If you have easy access to pornographic publications and products like in other countries, you won't be excited about the Uniqlo video," said Li.

History of repression

Tradition and laws making sex a taboo in China date back thousands of years, to the 10th-century Song Dynasty. But Li says sexual repression reached its peak during Communist leader Mao Zedong's Cultural Revolution in the 1960s and 1970s.

At the time, "having sex was only meant for reproduction but not for enjoyment," she said.

In the 1980s, said Li, it was not uncommon for people to be sentenced to death for having sex parties or selling pornographic products and publications.

It wasn't until 1997 when sexual repression was lifted in China. That year, so-called "hooligan crimes" — broadly defined laws targeting everything from extramarital affairs to homosexuality — were abolished.

Since then, China has experienced a sexual liberation. More than 70% of Chinese people have premarital sex, said Li, citing a recent survey.

Double standard?

Even today, many traditional attitudes toward sex remain — sexist double standards, say some.

Like feminist activist Zheng Churan, who believes the woman in the Uniqlo video has become the incident's biggest victim.

"Whenever there is a sex scandal, people either think the woman is pathetic, or denounce her for being slutty," Zheng told CNN.

But fewer have condemned the man in the video, who was seen as brave or powerful.

Zheng likened the video's aftermath to the fallout over the Edison Chen scandal, after which the women Chen slept with were often shamed more than Chen himself.

As Li put it: "Essentially it's a patriarchal society where men can enjoy sex while women shouldn't. The double standard has been existed for thousands of years."

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#39: Jul 26th 2015 at 9:41:48 PM

The beauty of globalization - even the Chinese are starting to say that We All Live in America. tongue

American football gains popularity in China as younger generation embraces US culture

The scene could be from any US suburb: two teams of youngsters in football helmets, cleats and pads; referees in pinstripes; parents snapping photos and cheering from the sidelines. But the clipboard-toting coaches call out plays in Chinese and the field is at a park in Beijing.

China’s capital might seem an unlikely place to find American football, but interest among China’s youth is growing, according to Shen Yu, marketing director for Great Stone Gridiron. The private football club was Beijing’s first when it was founded three years ago. Around 500 children participate, including about 150 in tackle football programmes .

Part of the game’s appeal is its outsider status and its association with American culture. Also, it’s popular with kids who are big for their age, or who haven’t excelled in the Olympic sports that China’s sports programmes focus on.

“Because it’s not part of that system, it gives the chance for ordinary people to play,” said Wes de Kirby, 25, an American coach with Great Stone Gridiron.

Liu Jiayou, 9, said his mother showed him some NFL games on television and he was attracted by the heavy contact of the sport.

“I like the running, the pushing, and the hitting,” Liu said.

Great Stone uses a mixture of Chinese and foreign coaches, such as the mohawk-sporting de Kirby, who was a high school football player in California before an injury derailed his dreams of playing in college.

He and the other coaches often have to start at a very basic level when working with their players.

“You have to teach them what a touchdown is,” de Kirby said. “They start with no knowledge whatsoever.”

Few of the players dream of playing professionally as adults. Most players give up the sport around age 12, when they enter middle school and abandon extracurricular activities to focus on studying for China’s relentlessly competitive high school and college entrance exams.

On a recent night, players from the Vipers and the Sharks squared off in northern Beijing on a field nestled between a bus parking lot and elevated rail tracks. Subway trains rumbled by on the other side of a fence just beyond the end zone.

De Kirby, head coach of the Sharks, prowled the sidelines shouting instructions in fluent Chinese, but his team ultimately lost to the Vipers, 35-28.

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#40: Jul 28th 2015 at 4:28:38 PM

107 million Chinese globetrotters, but a mere 18,700 make it to Israel

With just one route servicing China, strict visa rules and virtual no marketing, Israel isn’t getting its fair share of surging Chinese tourism.

______________________________________

The Chinese have a long-standing love affair with the Dead Sea. They learn about the lowest spot on Earth in school, for example, and when the Dead Sea was mooted as a candidate in a 2011 contest for one of the new seven wonders of the world – China chalked up the largest number of votes in favor of Israel’s saltiest sea. The Chinese have even undertaken to create an artificial Dead Sea in Sichuan province, to simulate the real one.

One would have hoped that this would have been enough to make Israel a prime destination for Chinese tourists, but it hasn’t.

“To say that not much has been done to bring Chinese tourists to Israel is not true. It would be more correct to say that almost nothing has been done” – that comment comes from Israel’s new tourism minister, Yariv Levin, who has been in office since May.

The data show that there is some truth to what he says. Over the past three years, there has in fact been a major increase in Chinese tourism in the Holy Land, but the numbers are still small. Last year, about 32,000 Chinese came here, up 29% from 2013. The upward trend is continuing this year. During the first five months of 2015, Israel has welcomed 18,700 Chinese tourists, a 35% increase over the same period in 2014.

When you look at the bigger picture, however, you see that this is a drop in the ocean. The Chinese represent one of the largest populations of foreign travelers around the world. Last year, 107 million of them went abroad, a 19.5% increase over 2013. Although most head to destinations in the Far East, about 20 million venture further afield.

Lack of flights

The first obstacle to growth in Chinese tourism in Israel is a lack of direct flights here. China has a number of international airports but the only direct route between that country and Israel is El Al Airlines’ route to Beijing. Under such circumstances, the supply of seats is limited and prices are not competitive. About six months ago, it was announced that China’s fourth-largest carrier, Hainan Airlines, was expected to begin three flights a week in September, on the days on which El Al doesn’t fly the route. The inauguration of that service has now been deferred to November, for reasons that Tourism Ministry sources decline to disclose.

For his part, Tourism Minister Levin says that the delay is the result of bureaucratic difficulties related to the terms the Chinese carrier received.

“Around the world it is acceptable to provide benefits such as an exemption from certain fees to a carrier that is beginning service along a certain route, but in Israel, we are not prepared for this,” Levins explains. “We are due to meet with Transportation Minister Yisrael Katz to expedite the matter, and are also working with the Israeli ambassador in China, Matan Vilnai, to resolve the issue.”

If this is indeed the reason for the delay, however, negotiations are likely to reach a dead end, as government sources have told The Marker that Israel simply does not provide such benefits. Airlines that fly here do so based on commercial considerations and they configure their operations here accordingly, the sources said.

Since the number of Chinese traveling abroad is rising quickly, many countries are courting them. These are typically tourists who stay for a relatively long period of time since they are traveling major distances. Moreover, the amount of money a Chinese tourist spends is also relatively high, so the potential posed by these visitors is great.

Ambassador Vilnai says the goal for the coming years is to bring 100,000 Chinese tourists a year to Israel, but that appears to be a distant dream unless significant changes are made.

Beyond the number of flights from China, Israel’s visa requirements for Chinese nationals are also a major issue. Minister Levin acknowledged that rather than applying for a visa to Israel, the tendency of many tourists is simply to go elsewhere; in any case, he says, demanding visas from organized tour groups is totally unnecessary. Calls to eliminate the visa for Chinese visitors have become a “legacy,” handed down from one tourism minister to the next, but so far there has been no breakthrough.

A meeting has been scheduled this month to discuss the subject, and is to include Interior Minster Silvan Shalom and representatives of the foreign and justice ministries, but expectations are not high.

Food and other factors

Once Chinese tourists do arrive here, they have certain special preferences, says Ilan Maor, vice president of the Israel-China Chamber of Commerce. They would happily enjoy one authentic Israeli meal, he notes, but would prefer to eat at Chinese restaurants. And they discover that authentic Chinese cuisine is hard to come by here.

“They want everything to be in Chinese,” Maor says. “As Israelis, when we visit Paris, we have no expectations that anything will be in Hebrew, but the Chinese person thinks: ‘I represent a global tourism power, so I have it coming to me.’

“The British have already announced that in some of the places frequented by [Chinese] tourists, they will install signs in Chinese. In addition, most of the major hotels around the world have someone who speaks Chinese, and their websites and brochures are also written in Chinese. Of course, tourists who come here need a tour guide who speaks their language.”

Some hotels that have experience with Chinese guests have understood that they need to make changes to accommodate these visitors, particularly when it comes to breakfast. Even though the typical Israeli hotel breakfast provides a plethora of varied offerings, the Chinese have their own preferences.

“We have even sent cooks to specialize in preparing Asian breakfasts, which include rice, dumplings, congee porridge and other foods,” explains Shai Asia, executive vice president of Crowne Plaza Israel hotels.

“We also put the tea bags they like in their rooms,” he adds, along with noodles they can prepare by themselves in their rooms by adding hot water.

Crowne Plaza hotels are currently implementing a scheme aimed at providing services geared to the Chinese visitor that includes not only a special breakfast but Chinese-speaking staff and the option for the guests to pay with China’s Union Pay credit card.

Shai Doitsh, the marketing and sales manager for Arcadia hotels, says his chain is also trying to accommodate the culinary preferences of its Chinese visitors.

“Before they arrive, we contact the group and check their particular meal preferences,” he says, adding that at dinner, the hotels include rice and Asian dishes. At Prima hotels, they serve rice at breakfast along with rice cereal and various kinds of fish.

If Israel is hoping to welcome 100,000 Chinese tourists a year, it will need a network of Chinese-speaking guides, as these visitors would naturally expect. The problem is that Chinese is hardly a popular language in Israel and apparently, there are only about 35 tour guides who speak it. Accommodating 100,000 Chinese tourists would require about 100 such guides. To that end, about a year ago the Tourism Ministry opened a course in Chinese for tour guides, with about 30 participants. The course also teaches participants about Chinese culture and customs.

‘Israel isn’t on the map’

Marketing of Israel is another area that will require attention if 100,000 Chinese visitors are to be brought here. The Israel Government Tourist Office in China is expected to add an emissary from Israel to step up marketing efforts and the office is also due to open a Shanghai branch. The Israeli tourism bureau in China currently has a budget of just a few million shekels, which doesn’t permit massive promotion of Israel.

But if the budget is not boosted, the numbers of arrivals from China cannot be expected to reach the goal that Israel has set for itself. “Israel isn’t on the map for the Chinese tourist,” Maor says. “He doesn’t see us advertising. They may come here perhaps on business, but not for vacation. It doesn’t occur to them.”

One of the efforts currently coming together to market Israel in China includes collaboration with other countries that the Chinese tourist may consider visiting. The possibility of offering a package with travel agents from Italy is currently being looked into, making the trip to Israel more attractive. Italy is less than four hours from Israel by plane, which from the standpoint of the Chinese is a short hop.

Israeli travel agents add that Chinese tourists are less sensitive to the security situation in Israel. Unlike Europeans, they generally come on short notice, and usually in a group that reserves five to ten rooms at a hotel.

“We are trying to bring Chinese tourists to a tourist destination that suits them. The potential is already here. The Dead Sea, history, amazing archaeology, impressive geographic diversity, an English-speaking population, a high-tech background that excites them, so we have a wonderful foundation,” says Maor.

And here’s a little but important tip for hotels: If the Chinese staying at whatever hotel are satisfied, their friends and relatives will come. That’s how it works. Chinese tourists rely tremendously on recommendations from friends. That’s how they decide where to go, and it’s not just the advice of close friends.

“The Chinese go onto the websites of hotels and interesting destinations and thoroughly read reviews. They are crazy about searching the Web,” says Maor, who describes the avid writing and reading of such reviews. “They don’t necessarily go on Trip Advisor, because they have opinion sites of their own, but the idea is clear. A hotel that conducts itself particularly well for a tourist, will gain a huge advantage in this market,” he says. “On the other hand, if they mess up, everyone will know about it.”

I find that little tidbit about the Chinese tourists' insistence on remaining "Chinese" and eating Chinese food for the duration of their trips in foreign exotic countries rather narrow-minded and arrogant if you'd ask me. It's as if they believe that the non-Chinese world revolves around them and should cater to them - which technically is true From a Certain Point of View considering that the the Mandarin name of "China" (zhong-guo) literally translate to "Central Country/Middle Kingdom".

I'm Chinese-American by the way, so what I just said shouldn't be considered racially charged. tongue

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#41: Jul 28th 2015 at 5:48:44 PM

Unfortunately, most of those who are rich enough to travel out of China are still very provincial. Their idea of tourism is to see some famous sites and go shopping but still eat and behave like what they're used to at home. Being catered to and not being forced to try new things is "comfortable" and in their mind, they paid big bucks to be "comfortable".

It's not that they have some nationalistic idea that the non-Chinese should revolve around the Chinese. It's that a lot of them are spoiled rich people who thinks the world should revolve around them and they are very used to their lifestyles at home.

edited 28th Jul '15 5:54:51 PM by nightwyrm_zero

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#42: Jul 28th 2015 at 5:54:10 PM

I can get behind that. Even American tourists, who get a big kick out of the exoticness of the cultures they're visiting, want something familiar.

In fact, several famous "Chinese food" dishes common in America were invented to appease Chinese travelers, most famously and iconically, Lo Mein.

Have y'all seen that video of that mother who was crushed by a collapsing escalator?

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#43: Jul 28th 2015 at 5:56:24 PM

[up]Yeah, it's pretty fucked up. It does nothing to reduce my suspicion of mainland China infrastructure and safety practices.

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#44: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:01:11 PM

Their idea of tourism is to see some famous sites and go shopping but still eat and behave like what they're used to at home

Can confirm, they speak way too loud, even within big places of pilgrimage and/or religious practice/devotion (e.g. Santiago de Compostela, St. Peter's Basilica).

edited 28th Jul '15 6:01:31 PM by Quag15

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#45: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:05:47 PM

It's a thing. My whole family speak too loudly, especially when excited, or when competing with ambient noise/background conversations.

I am incredibly grateful for those friends of mine who make sure I stay quiet and don't embarrass myself in public.

I am also Chinese-American. Hi there.

Most of the time, we're not aware of it. I try to stop myself on the rare occurrence I notice, but I am NOT the most self-aware.

edited 28th Jul '15 6:06:47 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#46: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:12:07 PM

[up]Hi and welcome. I mean, it's not that speaking loudly is wrong per se (especially within a house or in a cafe), it's more the talking loudly within places where one is not supposed to.

Also, I assume there's a disconnection in terms of attitude (or at least, a sense of empathy and adaptation) between Chinese-Americans and Mainland Chinese. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And don't worry about not being very self-aware. We all make some mistakes when it comes to our speaking volumes (in my case, I speak in a very low volume, which is the opposite problem).

edited 28th Jul '15 6:14:05 PM by Quag15

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#47: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:12:14 PM

Chinese-Canadian here. Chinese seems to be a very loud language...

Mainland Chinese seems especially bad and impolite, some of my Hong Kong friends really hates Mainland tourists.

edited 28th Jul '15 6:14:25 PM by nightwyrm_zero

Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#48: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:18:21 PM

[up]I assume the loudness of the language is associated with the tonality it has?

Also, do you know if the Macanese have the same complaints? I've wanting to visit (and maybe even work) Macau sometime (being Portuguese and all, you know, a historical affinity and all that).

edited 28th Jul '15 6:19:39 PM by Quag15

blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#49: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:20:42 PM

I think energy is considered part of the courtesy in the mainland. If you fail to greet someone with sufficient excitedness, you aren't really excited to see them. My family in Beijing, whenever we visit always greets each other and my parents in a very boisterous way. My parents greet their friends in a very boisterous way. My parents argue with each other in a very boisterous way. There isn't a lot of freedom in inflection (each word is inflected in a very specific way, and changing it changes the meaning. Chinese music has some hilarious mondegreens), so I think volume is one of the ways that people express their emotions. It's a thing.

[up][nja]Dang dude.

edited 28th Jul '15 6:21:22 PM by blkwhtrbbt

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#50: Jul 28th 2015 at 6:23:52 PM

[up][up]No idea about the Macau thing.

edited 28th Jul '15 6:24:25 PM by nightwyrm_zero


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