The description for The Mole is missing the point

I thought this trope was straight forward: a bad guy pretending to be a good guy and then using gathered information against them. Or the guy is just an informant for the real villain.

The trope description however stops at mentioning a "bad guy pretending to be a good guy". We have other tropes for that like Big Bad Friend. The important aspect of abusing the trust and leaking information out is completely absent.

Now, the Toy Story 3 example is definitely not a Mole scenario as I described. Either I am off with my expectation of what a Mole is or the current description leads to misuse.

Opinions?

Actually, moles can be used by the good guys as well. Therefore, the whole "good" and "evil" definition is not required.

Well, The Mole says that the "good guy" version of this is Reverse Mole. If this distinction stays, the The Mole should probably be limited to a bad guy pretending to be a good guy.

Personally I think there shouldn't be a difference between if the good guy or bad guy is being The Mole because they are the same trope. I'd almost say that the examples on Reverse Mole should be put over to The Mole because The Mole is what the trope is.

Reverse Mole isn't just the opposite side, since we need to consider viewpoint as well.

If The Mole is a villain, other villains would know about that character being a mole. However, if there's a Reverse Mole, the heroes is just as surprised that the character is a mole, even if it's for their own side. In both cases it's an unknown for the protagonists.

I wouldn't say that Reverse Mole is a subtrope of Stealth Mentor as the description claims, since it doesn't need to be a mentor type character.

Leaving the good/bad distinction aside, what is your definition of a mole (in contrast to other "false friends" tropes) and does the current trope description presents the idea well?

edited 3rd Jun '15 9:34:01 AM by eroock

It's a person who infiltrates an organisation pretending to be a member, for the purpose of spying or sabotage. It's not just a short infiltration job, but one that involves gaining the trust of the other members.

As described here the character's true identity is hidden from the viewpoint of the audience and protagonist, with some kind of reveal awaiting, although personally I'm not sure that's very important, since to me that's using a subversive type of storytelling with this character type.

Yeah, I don't think The Mole necessarily has to have their true nature hidden from the audience. It happens often, sure, but there are a number of stories from the mole's point of view.

If one took the description of The Mole and placed it under False Friend, I wouldn't notice. So it's just not well contrasted.

The difference is in the focus, but they can overlap. The Mole is about alliance and the job the mole has. False Friend is about not actually being the friend the character was made out to be.

And no, I don't think the description is so bad it can be placed under False Friend without changing that trope.

>>and the job the mole has

what job description could you spot?

The job description is missing from The Mole and Reverse Mole. A mole's job is to become a member of an opposing faction to gather information and help their side by betraying the faction they have pretended to ally with. Often spreading disinformation and limiting the effectiveness of their apparent side.

This is what I had assumed would be on The Mole page...

And, of course, sometimes a mole is recruited from within that faction rather than joining it under false pretenses.

edited 7th Jun '15 6:40:35 PM by Fighteer

So I'm thinking we should start a {TRS on this?

It would need one or two sentences added to describe the function. Is TRS the right place for that? Wasn't there a trope description tweaking thread dedicated to smaller fixes like this?

edited 9th Jun '15 12:07:31 PM by eroock

Yeah, I think whoever wrote the description just forgot to add that part because it was assumed. It's not a major change to the trope, so I don't see the problem with just adding a couple of lines yourself.

Okay. Can we go with crazysamaritan's definition above?

"A mole's job is to become a member of an opposing faction to gather information and help their side by betraying the faction they have pretended to ally with. Often spreading disinformation and limiting the effectiveness of their apparent side."

Opinions about the above being placed as the first paragraph in the trope description?

None from me.

Just do it. You don't need to ask for permission to make little changes like this. If someone has a problem with it they'll revert the change and you can discuss it afterward.

^ Done. IMO, if such things are taken too lightly, Trope Decay will become a bigger deal.