The Harem Protagonist's Choice

Now, I know that this is a fundamentally tricky statement to make due to the subjective nature of love and appeal, but it seems to me as if in most harem anime/manga series' (or really, any such in which the protagonist faces several prospective love interests from which he eventually chooses one), there's a tendency for the protagonist to finish with the character which is least interesting, attractive, or appealing personality-wise (for example, if one of the prospective love interests is a violent tsundere - a person most real life boys wouldn't like to be with - 9 times out of 10 a harem protagonist will end up with her). I thought this was simply a matter of me not getting the Japanese taste in girlfriends, but a joking (?) post on 4chan recently made me consider this: much of the popularity of harem anime is based on its appeal to otakus of the "husbando" variety (ones who view it as a means of fantasizing about being in place of the protagonist), so protagonists are deliberately made to canonically choose poor options so that the more attractive "waifus" would remain "pure" or "single" for the otaku's fantasies.

Do you agree with me that this seems to be a phenomenon? Do you agree with the Anon's theory about the reasoning behind it? Do you have examples for anime or manga which subvert this (Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai comes to mind, by the end of the anime of which it appears as if the protagonist has picked the rich, beautiful, relatively more sociable girl who's been more open the whole time about loving him rather than the snarky tsundere who'd have almost certainly been picked by the average harem protagonist)

actually, I would say the one that is ultimately chosen is the one he meets first, with the rest being there to extend the plot and to get fans to argue for each and every girl.

The exceptions (like for example twgok) don't follow your archetype either.

Even so, that still means that most of the "first girls" who win are these seemingly unlikeable character types.

Personally, I just figured the violent tsunderes and such had some appeal that I (and quite a few others) just didn't get.

Your example with Haganai is wrong as well as Kodaka falls in love with Rika, but starts dating Yukimura instead.

I'm pretty sure the primary reason is because writers are like

"alright guys gotta have the love interests"

"but wait"

"we need CONFLICT"

"and what makes that? BST!"

"and then people will all talk about how amazing chemistry they have because they're such assholes to each other"

"plus easy character development!"

"YES"

"LET'S DO THIS"

because without that you'll get people trashing on the couple like Asuna x Kirito in Sword Art Online because they're Mary Sues and whatever

SAO has a whole lot of problems though, not simply that. ^^;

As for harems, in L Ns you have to understand that many modern ones run on the "one book rule" — the first book is always self-contained, if it sells, it continues. However, because of the self-contained nature of the first book, whatever pairings that come out of it (if any at all) aren't usually the most interesting to readers. If the book gets an extension and becomes a series, you'll start to see additional cast members (and if its a harem, this means girls) who might turn out much MUCH more interesting to the readers compared to the girl of book 1.

Not that all L Ns are like this, but for every OTP that clicks IMMEDIATELY, you get several Touko and Louises.

edited 18th Oct '14 9:58:13 AM by MyssaRei

This is really subjective. I mean, I generally find the passive, ideal-wife types more boring than the tsunderes, so... Not to mention that in a lot of harem series the protagonist hasn't actually chosen anyone.

Yuuki: while I agree that some conflict is necessary, in a well written harem series every girl would have some personal issues to work out (a "conflict"). This may have roots in the fact that many originated either literally or conceptually in multiple choice visual novels/dating sims, in which it only makes sense for each "heroine" to have a route and a story. And yet, even if all of the characters have stories of their own, the vast majority of the time the protagonist is likely to end up with a character whom at least the majority of fans would be able to agree is not the "ideal" one (it feels strange to talk about love in those terms in the first place, but I guess you know what I mean). While there's certainly nothing wrong (and many things right) with showing someone not falling automatically for the girl who's richest or prettiest (especially the last one, since beauty is completely subjective by itself, even if some standards are commonly "accepted" and may be acknowledge in-series), many times he'll also end up ditching characters who were nicer to him, who by all means appear to have far more sincere emotions towards him, or who appear to be able to interact with him in a far more emotionally healthy manner (*cough* Louise De La Valiere *cough*). This becomes especially ridiculous in those series' which make one of the potential love interests blatantly "perfect" - not just an Ace (because these one might as well have nasty personalities), but also an Ace who genuinely loves the protagonist more and gets along with him better.

It's not actually important if the other options also have conflict. It just matters which one provides the most.

Audiences hate that kind of character the most. It's a marketer's doom going that direction, especially if there's no hard to get element in it.

True, I didn't say these were good characters. They're still there, though, and they almost never end up with the protagonist (which you'd think would be the "realistic" occurance).

People hate people better than them IRL too.

They will feel inferior, alienated, intimidated, and bored of them.

Basically the same thing that happens when people hate on them in fiction.

Also you're going to have to segregate things in this, between series who have their roots in Visual Novels, and series that start out in print media (like manga or a Light Novel), as the dynamics to the choice often differs.

First Girl Wins doesn't work much for an adaptation of a VN for example, but makes sense for light novels (where as I mentioned earlier, the first book is usually self-contained).

I would just like to point out a piece of obvious logic:

Seeing as harem series need to have at least three girls to meet that classification... unless the female lead is extremely popular, isn't this a given?

I mean, think about it. Let's say there are three girls and all of them are equally popular. No matter who the protagonist chooses, 2/3 of the fanbase is unhappy with the result.

I don't mind harems. I'm a big fan of girls. They're soft and they smell nice. As such, I'm quite all right with having more than one girl in my romances.

What I can't stand, however, are series that seem incapable of making up their minds on who should be "winner". I don't care who said winner is, as long as the story is still good, but I do want the story to constantly be moving in that direction without wasting too much development on characters that will never get a satisfying conclusion anyway.

is it that girls smell nice or that you just don't do much to your own smell

because really I've never noticed this "girls smell nice" thing personally

pretty often they have smelled worse (although it's usually the painters and party girls that are like this)

edited 18th Oct '14 12:49:07 PM by YuukiAsuna

Okay, so I'm actually kinda curious as to how many harem shows actually end with the main character hooking up with a girl and if that girl was the tsundere. Off the top of my head I can think of Love Hina.

Does SAO really count as a harem? As far as I've seen, after their respective episodes in the first season, the female characters seem to have gotten over Kirito. Sugu had her odd thing in the Fairy Dance arc, but her and Sinon really just seem to be there for the purpose of being a female sidekick rather that a romantic interest. The rest of the time they're just a bunch of friends who happen to be female.

There was a scene after Asuna gets freed at the end of Fairy Dance where Silica and Lizbeth watch her and Kirito enjoying themselves and regret giving them the space to. They clearly haven't gotten over him.

edited 18th Oct '14 1:50:41 PM by burnpsy

The main reasons why SAO doesn't count as a harem is because:

• The main character is already married by the time the first story is over (yes Lisbeth and Silica chronologically appear before this but Aincrad was written first, where they don't appear at all), Sachi is dead regardless of whatever feelings she had for the main character, and Klein never stood a chance despite being the first heroine anyway therefore removing Kirito from having choices (well he'd still have them if he was a cheating playboy but he isn't so) although Alice is supposedly a contender for his feelings waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay later when his memory has been damaged and thus cannot clearly remember his wife.
• Any of the girls after this(except Alice), regardless of what feelings they have, are easily pushed into the corner of irrelevance. This doesn't apply to the PS Vita game where they have tons of screentime though. Essentially, they're friendzoned and the narrative agrees.

I'm pretty sure the main reason why Kirito has so many girls around him is because he was designed to be a Knight in Shining Armor (except without the armor, unfortunately) and you know how it is with damsels in distress and whatever in those.

I always thought this was because the main girl is there to be the foil to the girls that come later, and usually seen as "plain" compared to everyone else.

Really, I think it comes down to writing quality; the reason people tend not to like violet Tsundere being picked is because it's overdone, and usually the chemistry with the other girls is significantly better.

I'd much rather prefer a scenario where, instead of being "little bit here, little bit there" equally attracted to each girl, the protag picks one early on and sticks with his choice.

Rosario + Vampire. The downside to doing something like that is that this makes everyone else an even more explicit third wheel than usual.

edited 18th Oct '14 4:12:52 PM by burnpsy

To be fair, Rosario+Vampire does explore that concept; the other girls already know they don't have a chance, and it causes rather a lot of angst.

edited 18th Oct '14 4:17:04 PM by BlackYakuzu94

This again? No I don't think there's exists a tendency for the main girl to be the worst one. What I see is people getting angry that their favorite girl is a supporting character and venting it on the heroine.

Said the guy with a Saber avatar :U

edited 18th Oct '14 6:54:23 PM by BlackYakuzu94

Saber was not the worst one. The worst was Rin.

What's wrong with Asuna x Kirito? I actually liked them as a couple (although I admit Asuna is a bit too Kirito-centric, threatening to commit suicide if he dies and all). Keep in mind that I have only seen the first season.