General Autism Discussion

@Gabrael: What makes the kid allegedly have "autism symptoms" that come and go inconsistently? While temper tantrums are a recognized autism symptom, in the form of meltdowns, they occur for very specific reasons in autistics, and in and of themselves, I wouldn't use them to classify anyone.

This also reminds me of a story I heard once about a man who wanted to get an advantage over his wife in divorce proceedings, so he got some dumb psychologist to diagnose him with Aspergers, and then he gleefully took that diagnosis with him. The reason for the diagnosis? He said things to his wife that were so cruel, that he just gotta have Aspergers, because there's no possible other explanation! Really? I wouldn't be surprised if this idiot shows zero Aspergers traits (I don't consider rudeness in and of itself to be an Aspergers trait - not recognizing that your bluntness causes emotional harm to others and that you need to temper it, that's the actual trait). I bet he couldn't convincingly fake having Aspergers to save his donkey.

Thing is, I've encountered people with Aspergers who are very nice! As in, they seem to go out of their way to be friendly, are big on exclamation points in their typing, and are pleasant to communicate with (online). That might not translate into how they act in person, but typing is very different. I've also encountered Aspies who are "robotic". Being an asshole is something they can learn to avoid.

Autistic children don't just have textile issues one day, then not the next. Autistic children who don't like strangers or who have transition issues don't magically just not have them when it's convenient for them. Autism isn't a light switch you turn off and on, as you know.

Now you can be conditioned to deal with say, having an aversion to a certain color or being exposed to change like a new student, but that takes time and intense therapy, especially with a child under the age of 10 who is still growing and has changing hormones and chemical balances to go with it.

Again, I spent a lot of time with Autistic children and adults, those who needed to be institutionalized because their condition was so severe, and those who just needed special education. You just see these trends after a while in both the kids and their parents.

I have also worked with enough kids who are abused or exposed to domestic strife that I honestly feel like this kid is acting out, not autistic. He's completely inconsistent, the dynamics between the parents, the fact no legitimate doctor will give the parents the diagnosis they insist he has, the relationship with the sibling, etc.

This isn't a judgement against the kid. They're just reacting to their dumbass parents. This is a judgement of the parents. But regardless, this kid is being told he's autistic and that he just needs medication. So chances are, this kid is just going to accept that regardless of the fact all doctors say he's normal. But most people don't have the experience I do and will take the parent's word that the kid is autistic. They will use his behavior to judge other cases, which is just adding to misinformation all over the place for people to act on.

I've talked with other parents who do have children with legitimate diagnosis'es and they hate this. No, your kid isn't a Rainbow Child, you're just letting them be a jerk. And while we all appreciate Autism awareness is spreading to the point that more people are willing to assume the child has a disorder or disability instead of just being an ass, that doesn't mean that you have the ability to self-diagnosis your child. Unless you're a competent psychologist or specialist, but even then you probably need to get your kid evaluated by an outsider. And if enough professionals tell you your kid's fine, stop arguing with them.

Too many times, children become a proxy for the dysfunctional relationship of their parents. It's sad to see. I have a severely ADHD child who needs medication to be functional in school. He has anger management issues and his psychiatrist tossed a potential bipolar disorder diagnosis at me during our last visit. He is in no way autistic, however: when fully attentive, he's very sensitive to the emotional state of those around him. His impulsiveness can mask that and make it seem like he isn't understanding social cues when, in fact, he just doesn't notice them.

If I tried to get him an ASD diagnosis, I'd be treating the wrong problem. That could be worse for him than no treatment at all.

edited 20th Oct '14 12:12:10 PM by Fighteer

Exactly.

Also I fear that Autism has become, trendy? I'm not sure what word to use, but that will have to do for now.

And I get as a parent of a kid with issues that I would be really convenient to have a cute little label you can put on your kid and hope that it will lead them to being a complete savant or to at least be able to blame a disorder instead of your kid.

"It's not Mikey that's driving me crazy; it's the Autism!"

But that's not fair to the kid. That just makes them more messed up:

1) They're not getting the appropriate care.

2) You're compounding what issues they may already have and making it worse.

And the kid is learning that everything he does wrong is not to blame on him, but on his Asperger. So it is a carte blanche.

I'm like that, especially when I'm tired, stressed or unprepared. I've also been called "Extremely Sensitive" before now. Then again, I'm pretty complex.

@ Gabe: I'd agree that Autism and Aspergers has become somewhat fashionable in some quarters.

edited 20th Oct '14 12:15:16 PM by Greenmantle

Irritatingly trendy. It's why my docs were hesitant on the diagnosis and why I prefer not to throw the term out unless it's extremely relevant. Rather not be seen as some lackwit special snowflake looking for attention.

A lot of the kids in the institution I worked at were only as bad off as they were because their parents took that attitude and as such, their kids never learned how to function properly.

It was heartbreaking. A few could have been moved to independent living or even just completely out of the system, but their parents kept sabotaging what progress they were making by babying them, underestimating them, or not adhering to the therapy schedules.

In my role as a wiki moderator, I see an unfortunate number of cases of people who use their Asperger's diagnosis as an excuse for bad behavior, in a "special snowflake" fashion.

Of course, it's no excuse at all.

Obviously not. One should apologize for their poor behaviour. Ignorance or an inability to comprehend is excusable so long as you learn from it.

I am fmostly aware I can come off as standoffish, robotic, and condescending so I've trained myself in the art of restraint and in the moments where I can't I either apologize or sometimes I notify that I really want to say something that would typically come off as offensive.

edited 20th Oct '14 12:29:34 PM by MousaThe14

Yep, there are people who seem to like the idea of having aspergers or autism as an excuse for awful behavior. I got to witness my professor, the person who diagnosed me, yell at a parent because her attitude was almost literally "Well, he's never going to act normally, so why bother teaching him anything?" I wonder if the people who do that realize that they're sabotaging their children's futures. My mom didn't know I had aspergers, she had never heard of it until recently, but she managed to follow many of the suggested techniques without knowing what they were.

My professor said that a general rule of thumb is that someone who behaves maliciously and is aware of it, they probably don't have aspergers. They might, but someone with aspergers is far more likely to just be unaware of the effects their words and actions have.

If they behave maliciously and are aware of it, then they're an ass, no matter what they do or don't have, are or aren't.

"Well, he's never going to act normally, so why bother teaching him anything?" - Regarding some of the experiences of Aspies who got college degrees but couldn't get jobs, some of them have said variations of "Why bother getting a college degree if I'm just going to get a minimum wage job?" Others who were more successful have said that if they knew they had Aspergers earlier on, they would have likely developed that attitude themselves, but are glad that they didn't.

I would like to see an in-depth study done on successful versus unsuccessful Aspies that shows what went right/wrong, and therefore what can be learned from it.

edited 20th Oct '14 12:43:08 PM by BonsaiForest

I've had to deal with those parents before.

I freaking hate them.

Just because your kid has a disorder, and even a severe one, it is your obligation as a parent to give your child every tool possible to have as full a life as possible. Doesn't matter how deep that range is, you are supposed to let them have it.

edited 20th Oct '14 12:39:02 PM by Gabrael

I mentioned earlier an article about an individual in Canada with high-functioning autism who was at one point homeless. He ended up getting government support in the form of a group home, where he's grouped up with people who are all lower-functioning. He can't stand it. He said he'd rather be homeless on the streets, where he was at least treated as an equal by the people he knew there.

I roomed with a lower functioning pwerson for like a month. Like two months ago.

It. Is. Hell.

Ohhh fuck. What was it like? Tell us all the details!

@Bonsai,from a while back: I think there's a lot of things that apply to me, particularly the societal thing. Sensory stuff less so. With water, I like swimming and being around/on/in the ocean, but I can forget to shower. Sexuality: I'm bisexual, but my preferences aren't really what you'd call conventional. Unusual interests: Well, this is TV Tropes. Communication: I get some of these, but I think I've got better over the years. Brain development: I remember one of my teachers at primary school asking my parents why they were letting me read Dan Brown. I do find myself thinking outside the box (or at least thinking I do) sometimes.

Also, what percentage of autistic people in the UK are employed? Just asking out of interest.

Context: Job Corps's living arrangements are basically four people to a room in bunkbeds. However I got moved into the special dorm for leaders and students that caused NO problems and made almost no complaints.

Eventually because this place is bullspit, the lady in charge of resident living put this lower functioning fellow in the dorm because she was concerned of his "sensitivities" since this place overall is a den of thugs and criminal behavior. Obviously this bothered people, mostly me, because he hadn't earned the privilege to live here.

I never interacted with him until the. We've been in the same campus of 100-150-ish people for Half a year.

To me he was that weird guy that talks to himself and makes weird sound affects and noises ALL THE TIME and paces while doing so. Especially in the cafeteria. In a place where people are trying to walk, God damn him.

Anyway, because I wanted a bottom bunk and Ms. Siblee wanted these rooms filled, I had to room with him. Besides the fact he plays his video games too loudly, makes fake snoring noises when he is clearly awake but because he's in bed I guess he feels obligated to act like a cartoon. And that whole talking to ones self thing doesn't STOP. It's like he's his own little cartoon show, audience of one, and it drove me bonkers. I asked him to stop. I asked him to quiet down man times, But God damn, he is just too stupid to comprehend, that was my only logical explanation for it.

And you know what always got my goat? His incessant laziness. I cannot STAND people that take naps all through the day, especially when they CLEARLY get regular good nights sleeps at regular hours. That level of laziness makes me want to strangle a man. I wanted to hurt him.

And thus Day in and day out, the noise noise noise. And I could tell he was a lower functioning version of one of us, the flapping, the slow speech, the hours spent on his phone to watch funny videoes, the incessant inappropriate and overly loud laughter, his inability to tell that there was a time and a place for flapping and talking to oneself and it sure as hell wasn't in public all the live long day. I do it too but I know how to limit my self and the flipping occurs when I am extremely angry or anxious or stressed. But him, it's all the time.

But he's not inarticulate, I've heard him talk, he talks to people all the time, she video games and the like. He sounds dull and slow, almost like a cartoon stereotype of a dullard, but he is clearly not a complete idiot.....

I got moved out to a better room with better roommates because some weeks ago I had a really awful day, betrayed by someone I saw as a friend and when I'm angry, I am trying very hard to not lash out and to not break things. I am also, extremely honest. Rather than keep quiet like I always do I will lay my grievances bare. So as I walked down the hall and he was in the way I shived him aside and called him an idiot. I said things like "one side, dummy" and "move it you idiot!"

It was handled internally since it was a dorm of mostly leaders after all. And I was releived of my agony before I could be more honest.

edited 20th Oct '14 1:32:22 PM by MousaThe14

I decided to look up UK autistic employment. Led to an interesting article about people who believe their autism helps them in the workplace.

Both emphases mine. Anyway, like I said, current rates are poor, but people are gradually starting to be taught to accept/understand us. The UK has an organization, Prospect, that helps autistics find jobs. I'm glad to see the "help autistics get good jobs" industry is sprouting up worldwide. From what I read, it originated in Norway, by way of a company called Specialisterne.

Also, glad to see that my list of traits is rather accurate. So many people are saying "yup, much of that describes me well".

edited 20th Oct '14 1:26:52 PM by BonsaiForest

@Fighter, on the guy who just won't follow the rules, his issues are not your responsibility to deal with. Getting the guy to stay away is possible, but it's not something you as a mod can achieve. Someone in that dude's life has to sit him down and help him work though his issues, and that's not something you guys can manage, I'd say treat it the way way you'd treat any other persistent wiki vandal.

@The idea of Autism as 'trendy', I've noticed it a bit online but never encountered it in real life, but my circle is very small when it comes to that. The spectrum people in my life are my dad (not diagnosed but obvious once you look), an old friend from when I was little, a guy I knew at college, myself and my ex (who is both ASD and full on Stepford Smiller).

@Job stuff, I've been dogging this discussion because it seems very focused on the American working experience. I'm curious as to how ASD folks fare in the job market in other countries.

Edit: Gotta love a good ninja like that.

edited 20th Oct '14 1:30:36 PM by SilasW

Some of his behaviors sound uncomfortably familiar.

Okay, a few things about his behavior. I don't think it's a matter of "there's a time and place for ____ behavior", because he has a very hard time not controlling it. How do I know? Because I used to do some of the same stuff, like the inappropriate loud laughter (that got me in trouble in school a lot). Stuff like that is often a response to stress and or sensory stimulation, and knowing that he'll get in trouble for it makes the situation worse, thus increasing the stress and chance of engaging in the behavior. I used to cover my face in fifth grade to try to prevent myself from bursting out into laughter and getting in trouble. It was horrible.

He sounds to me like someone who genuinely can't control his behavior, and who is overstimulated and or stressed, not someone who's consciously trying to be an asshole. He may be upset, like I was, about his inability to stop.

Really, cause he acts like he's having the time of his life...

@ Bonsai: That 15% figure does include lower-functioning autistics too. In fact, I suspect that's most of the sample.

edited 20th Oct '14 1:36:06 PM by Greenmantle

I agree, Greenmantle. We damn well need to find a way to separate the high and low functioning and learn about their issues separately, since they're not the same issues necessarily. Grouping Aspies with people who rock in place all the time doesn't help either group, IMO.