Technical and Progressive Death Metal.

I like some of it, though mostly the older stuff, i.e. bands like Atheist, Cynic, Pestilence, Nocturnus, Gorguts and latter day Death on the Technical side of things and Alchemist, Opeth and Edge of Sanity on the Progressive, to name a few. On the more modern end of things, one band I can immediately name is Augury. Good band, and Canadian (like me) to boot...

Anyone else into this genre at all?

Never really heard much actual death metal in a lot of bands commonly given this label (ie. later Death, Opeth, later Alchemist, most of Cynic) but I like a fair share of bands that could be classified as prog or tech myself. The Chasm, Phantasm, Iniquity, Timeghoul, Demilich, and so on are among some of the most adventurous and compositionally ambitious death metal I've heard and know how to keep things grounded in the same ferocity as Morbid Angel and Dismember.

edited 12th Mar '14 6:40:08 PM by StillbirthMachine

I've heard good things about Demilich and Timeghoul. Btw, isn't your avatar a Demilich cover? I've seen that one before, never listened to all of it though...

I've always thought of the ones I mentioned as Technical or Progressive Death Metal- they have the harsh vocals, the double-kick drumming with the odd blastbeat and the riffing style, at least occasionally. Definitely not purist Death Metal though. I like a lot of my Death Metal weird though, so make of that what you will. Actually, that applies to a lot of the Black Metal I like too.

Not to say that I don't like the more conventional bands, though- Obituary, early Entombed, Morbid Angel, Deicide, Unleashed, Dismember- all great bands IMHO. And of course, there's pre-Human Death as well, and Death/Thrash like early Sepultura, Sadus and Possessed...

Yes, it's one of the reissues of 1993's Nespithe. I would strongly recommend that album as being among the most adventurous extreme metal releases to date. Here's a remastered version from the recently released 20th Adversary of Emptiness compilation.

I can see Nocturnus, Death on Human, Gorguts, earlier Edge of Sanity, some of the pre-Focus Cynic material, and first album Alchemist as being death metal. However, in a lot of cases, beyond the harsh vocals, a lot of these bands were closer to a blend of classic progressive rock, earlier heavy metal, and some psychedelia and jazz fusion, focusing less so on the more rigid, mutant approach to structure as death metal and more of grand contrasts and more stream-of-thought or even technical-jamming. There's bits of it there and I know quite a few of them come from a more death metal background, but even Chuck Schuldiner started distancing himself from death metal in both interviews and music after a while (a lot of their post-Human material is closer to thrash and even traditional/power metal crossed with Watchtower style prog).

Timeghoul I'd also strongly recommend for just some of the most expertly composed death metal out there. There's a subtle classical influence in the riff structures and some of the doomy lead melodies which tend to convey a sense of spacey vastness rather than acrobatic virtuosity and swirling swordplay. "Occurrence on Mimas" is more or less my favourite death metal song.

Good that you would mention Sadus by the way. Swallowed in Black and A Vision of Misery are all too rare cases of a band that got more technical without forsaking the feral edge of the underground.

edited 12th Mar '14 6:53:00 PM by StillbirthMachine

Sweet mercyful God that's awesome! I should really hunt that one down...

I remember reading that Chuck Schuldiner eventually came to dislike Death Metal as a term and as a genre, that (I'd imagine) being his reason for forming Control Denied. I suppose a lot of those bands were kinda more Progressive Metal bands that had Death Metal sections in their songs? That sounds reasonable to me I guess. Funny that you'd mention Watchtower's influence on latter-day Death- I can actually sorta hear it, since I've been listening to a lot of Watchtower (and other Progressive Thrash bands) lately...

That sounds like another one I'll need to check out. I'm finding a goodly amount of new music to investigate lately...

Sadus were a great band. Sorta a technical Death/Thrash thing happening there... I'm a big fan of Steve Di Gorgio, have been ever since I first listened to Human and Individual Though Patterns. After I heard them, I went back and listened to the Sadus albums. He's also played with Control Denied, Testament, Autopsy (on their first album), Vintersorg (another band I'm pretty into) and a whole bunch more...

What's your opinion on Opeth? They're a favorite of mine, personally...

I guess you could call a lot of these bands "death-influenced progressive metal", pun unintended. There was a trend in general during the early 90's for raw sounding death metal bands to go for more melodic, accessible sounds but not necessarily progressive ones (ie. At The Gates with Slaughter of the Soul and Sentenced with their post Amok depressive goth rock) and some of these bands did bring small tidbits of death metal with them, primarily vocals and sometimes the production. In all honesty, I don't like most of them due to them just oftentimes sounding awkward, undecided, or mostly showboating their newer, "artsier" influences but there are exceptions now and then. One of them is the French band Supuration who started off as primitive death/grind before moving to a very simple but well put together version of death-influenced prog metal.

Although at its core a lot of this is very rhythmically focused, semi rockish, stop-and-go doom/traditional metal, it keeps a death metal ish approach to composition. In this case it's creating a conversation between two pairs of riffs, letting melody seep out at opportune moments, before reaching a consensus and further elaborating explanation on initial statement of theme. Fairly simple but like the best of classic death metal, it takes a simple idea and expands it far beyond the sum of its parts, creating the epic from the primitive (and even somewhat poppy in their case).

Another one I enjoy is the Canadian band Martyr who are essentially 90's Death but with better technique, vocals, and song structuring. Basically, the bits of traditional/power/thrash that in Death's case held them back are reined in here for songs that resolve their riffs way more definitively and have a more adventurous yet concise approach to proggy songwriting. Their debut is also pretty good, a bit like a more ambitious version of Individual Thought Patterns.

Outside of Steve Harris, Steve Di Georgio is among the more prolific of metal bassists. He does have some jazz training and I think what makes him so popular is that he plays his bass as if it's an additional lead guitar. While the quality of the projects he has been involved with IMO has varied quite wildly over the years, Sadus, Futures End, and first album Autopsy are still all classics in their respective styles. I believe that he was one of many musicians who benefitted from the star-attention that Chuck Schuldiner gave.

I liked Opeth a lot when I was still in high school, now they irk me. They're talented technically and have ambitious ideas, but have a problem of their songs (at least the stuff after their debut) feeling like it becomes less coherent the longer it goes on. The whole "underground metal is close minded because they don't like our artsy stuff" schtick they did some time ago also doesn't clear up the image of them being the stereotype of pretentious prog nerds. Their debut is sort of nice if you want something a bit like classic Greek style black metal and the earlier Peaceville style of gothic/melodic doom.

Well, I've gotta say that you're pretty much an endless source of interesting Metal bands to listen to...

I've heard of Martyr, once again, sounds like my kinds of stuff. I'm a big fan of latter day Death (and early Death... Just Death, really), so something that's like that but more ambitious appeals to me greatly...

I'm a big fan of good bassists, in any genre- ever since I got into the Red Hot Chili Peppers and Primus many years ago, I've loved bassists who do more than stay in the background. Steve is something of favorite of mine. It does indeed appear that he benefited from Chuck's attention though, since I've noticed that the number of projects he's been in increases after his stint with Death...

Oh, Opeth are pretentious Prog nerds, no question. I'm completely okay with that though. They definitely have their shit together technically, too. Keep in mind that I have A LOT of patience for long-ass songs... Their songs require quite a bit of stamina and a long attention span to decipher the structures of, but for me, it's worth it in the end...

With a lot of the bands you mention in the OP I tend to like their earlier less technical material more than their later, more popular albums. Atheist's debut is my favorite of theirs, though I do like their second album a lot as well. A lot of people would say that their third album is their best, but I've never been able to get into it. Haven't bothered with anything after that. With Pestilence, I like the first one the best again, though I also listen to Consuming Impulse a lot. Most of the other bands you mention on the technical side have at least some material I enjoy, but I can't stand Cynic's full lengths, mainly because of the vocals.

Can't say I'm a fan of anything you mentioned on the progressive side, but I probably should check out Edge of Sanity's earlier material.

I'm also seconding Demilich (the vocals may sound a bit weird at first) and Timeghoul (I used to have their logo as my avatar). I'd also like to throw in Demigod's Slumber of Swollen Eyes and Adramalech's Psychostasia as more restrained examples of technical death metal.

I like all of Atheist's work, but the third one did take me a while to warm up to. Everything I've ever heard suggests that staying away from Atheist's post-reunion stuff is the best course of action... Cynic's music I like, but I agree the vocals are... weird. I still like it, but I get that completely. Pestilence were great. Never really listened to their new stuff though, but the old stuff is classic...

Progressive anything is kinda hard to get into, so I can't fault that. By all means, check out Edge of Sanity. Good band, though they do get progressively more... well, progressive as they get further into their career. Then Dan Swano leaves and everything goes to shit, IMHO...

Seconded, eh? Damn. Now I need to hunt those down... Demigod I've heard of in passing, but never really listened to. I listened to an Adramalech album awhile back, can't remember which one... Was probly the one you mentioned though.

Progressive and technical death metal bands, regardless of the style, tend to be where the more prominent bassists go. Among the more extreme cases is with Rainer Landfermann (better known for his work in Bethlehem) shredding away in Pavor. Their debut album is in the Suffocation vein but with a more European approach to melody and harmony along with notably longer, more complex songs that one could arguably call progressive in their complexity. It's on their follow-up however that Rainer takes the "additional lead guitar" of metal bass playing into a new realm. As you can hear, they more or less became a different and far more unusual band.

I like longass songs myself (Heresie by Univers Zero is my favourite non metal album and all three tracks, four if you have the remaster, are over ten minutes) but their inevitable problems are either having enough variety to keep them going and deriving from that, having enough coherency so all the variety doesn't turn it into a directionless, showboating mess. To me, Opeth have a lot of interesting pieces but they don't really form a very coherent puzzle. When it comes to death metal with long songs in general, I've always preferred bands more like Phantasm, The Chasm, Desolate Shrine, Mitochondrion, and Abyssal

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IMO, Elements is where they lost it. It honestly sounds like they wanted to just play jazz music at latin clubs at that point but were too reluctant to ditch the metal they honestly weren't as concerned with anymore, resulting in an album that was stuck between two worlds but not doing justice for either. Unquestioanble Presence to me is their high point and among the very best achievements of classic US death metal, up there with Infester, Morbid Angel, Incantation, and Autopsy.

You sure about Demigod? I've heard their later stuff is vaguely more Obliveon-ish, but Slumber of Sullen Eyes isn't much more technically accomplished than the usual Sunlight Studios fare. It's great, just miles away from progressive or technical death.

edited 13th Mar '14 6:18:56 PM by StillbirthMachine

I'm actually fine with prog. rock and quite a bit of prog. metal, just not those particular bands.

They're not straight up tech-death, which is why I used "more restrained", but I think they fit in somewhere in between Demilich and something like Convulse, keeping it in the background.

edited 13th Mar '14 5:24:32 PM by supergod

Their rhythms for the most part are really simple and streamlined, almost like Demoncy in their surging, reductive intent and they don't have a lot of the odd conflicting rhythms we'd associate with say, Gorguts or post-1996 Immolation. Are you perhaps talking about the stuff after the debut?

edited 13th Mar '14 5:27:41 PM by StillbirthMachine

I don't think I've ever heard that before. I could be thinking about another band entirely. Or maybe I'm just so much more used to rawer/thrashier death metal, that I have a very liberal view of technical. You're right about the rhythms, but I remember the leads being a bit more impressive than the typical death metal.

edited 13th Mar '14 5:39:40 PM by supergod

Pavor I've heard a few songs by- I liked what I heard... Bethlehem are a very weird one, though, not similar to Pavor a all in style. I'm rather fond of that style of bass playing, so I'll need to check 'em out in more detail. Great song, btw.

I'll agree to disagree about the Opeth- some of their songs come together, for me. Actually, it's mostly the later albums that do, IMO- Blackwater Park, Deliverance, "Ghost Reveries", et al. The early stuff is actually more free-form in some ways.

I like Elements myself, but it does seem a bit stylistically uncertain, I'll give you that. Unquestionable Presence is their best though, I agree there. Great record. Morbid Angel and Autopsy are great, even if Autopsy did keep doing different stuff each album...

Demigod tended to use some vaguely doomier leads but I don't recall them ever being as elaborate as say, Fatal Embrace or first album At The Gates.

Cult as Bethlehem are, they never quite did it for me.

Bethlehem are odd, no doubt about it. I'll need to do a more thorough listen-through before I can say whether or not their my thing. From what I've heard so far, they seem interesting...

I know they're associated with black/doom hybrids but I personally prefer something more like early Samael or Amen Corner.

Samael are great, in pretty much all phases of their career, IMO. I really like Passage andEternal myself, though the earlier stuff is quite good as well.

I'm not really all that familiar with Black/Doom myself, unless early Katatonia count, and I'd say in their case that they're closer to Death/Doom with bits of Goth Metal (and they went full-on Goth meta later on). Which is weird, cause I love both genres. Of the "pure" Metal genres, Doom and Black are probly just behind Thrash as favorites.

Black/doom is pretty niche although there's stuff like Forgotten Tomb now that's more heavy on the overt second wave BM influences. I tend to go for the more cult, vaguely Barbarian Wrath Records style stuff associated with Taranis, Faustcoven, and HAIL personally. Basically the grimier more first wave style stuff.

edited 13th Mar '14 8:36:10 PM by StillbirthMachine

Interesting. A genre I should give more thought to, clearly.

Like death/doom though, I believe most of this style is probably closer to the Peaceville style stuff rather than the older grimy/first wave style. Even the partially second wave onwards stuff is likely more common now.

edited 14th Mar '14 12:09:17 PM by StillbirthMachine

Bethlehem aren't bad, but they're a bit too plodding for me.

I like a lotta the Peaceville stuff. My Dying Bride are awesome, IMO.

How about Nile? What do you guys think of them? Just to bring things back to the subject at hand...

I'll admit to liking them a fair share when I was starting to get more into death metal but now they just bore me. I honestly like the concept and will say they integrate their more exotic influences better than the majority of brutal/technical death metal bands. However, I will blame them for popularizing a lot of the high-speed constant blitzkrieg intensity approach that resulted in a lot of more modern death metal feeling too uniform and lacking variety.

Their earlier stuff is good if not quite feeling fully finished yet. I wish they continued in that style, like a more "epic" version of Morpheus Descends.

edited 14th Mar '14 1:25:11 PM by StillbirthMachine

Oddly enough, I pretty much agree. I like 'em in small doses, but I agree that they spend too much time being brutal for me to be able to listen to more than a few songs at a time. I appreciate their technical ability, but honestly I'm not that into Brutal Death Metal...

Which is unfortunate, since their albums have a conceptual nature which I can't appreciate due to me not generally being able to get through a whole album in one go...