Saruman - The Greatest Failing of the LOTR Films

Saruman could not have mastered the Ring because by the time he had any chance at it he was already dominated by its creator. Even if he had captured the Ring, he would not have been able to deny Sauron any more than Gollum or the various orcs under his command.

Hypothetically speaking, an untainted Saruman might have been able to wield the Ring. But we're not talking about hypotheticals, we're talking about what happened in both the books and movies. Saruman never had a chance.

Also, the claim that the Ring is just an object misses a huge point of the story, that the Ring has a will of its own and seeks to return to its master, through deception and treachery. Saruman claiming the Ring for his own and trying to overthrow Sauron with it would just be another avenue for it to be returned to Sauron.

The will of the Ring is not wholly the will of Sauron or else NO ONE could have contemplated breaking it. It is merely a fraction of Sauron, a large fraction or even the bulk in a way, but it's still not comparable to the Dark Lord himself. Looking into the palantir is orders of magnitude more challenging than wearing the One I'd say.

Also Gandalf considers using the Ring only while he is the Grey and his fear is decidedly not "Sauron will enslave me" but "I'll use the Ring and kick too much ass."

But enough of this. Just remembered this quote:

"....Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamoured of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he." -Unfinished Tales, The Istari

Regardless, Saruman was never Sauron's willing puppet. The movies make no distinction of Sauron's will and Saruman's will and ultimately make Saruman seem weaker and far less important. He was by far the most complex and intriguing antagonist in the book because ultimately what he wanted was to complete his original mission. It's just that he had lost his way and come to the conclusion that the only way to combat Sauron was to personally defeat him. A somewhat rational and logical choice when you consider the alternatives; 1) try to combat him militarily and get lol stomped by a much greater army, or 2) bet on sheer dumb luck that someone can make it into Mordor undetected and destroy the Ring. (which Frodo never could have done anyway and Middle-earth owes Gollum a lot for biting off his finger)

edited 18th Dec '13 10:49:11 AM by Nikkolas

Eh, Gollum wouldn't have had to bite off his finger anyway if Elrond wasn't a douche.

It's been many years since I've read the books so I don't remember if this is true in them, but at least in the films, Elrond's a total hypocrite, disgustedly remarking on the weakness of men because Isildur fell to the Ring's power when the time came to destroy it. You were in the volcano too, Elrond. There is no reason that story couldn't have ended with,

• ISILDUR: No, I think I shall keep the Ring for myself, muwahaha.
• ELROND: Well, then, it sucks to be you. *push*

If you're going to bitch and moan about the weakness of men, don't forget the laziness of elves.

edited 18th Dec '13 10:55:05 AM by TobiasDrake

There's a reason no one likes Movie Elrond, even those diehard book fans who think Fellowship was the best adaptation.

Eh, be fair. Its nowhere near as simple as just "give him a push." To do that, Elrond would have needed to be the kind of person who would take a friend and comrade, and murder him flat out. And that kind of person? Would have been fodder for the Ring, himself. . . so he *wouldn't* have just pushed Isildur. He'd have tried his best to shank him and take the Ring, instead.

No, what he wanted was power. The desire for the Ring corrupted him and made him think that he could rule Middle Earth — which was not his original mission. The books are quite clear on this, and I think it's especially telling that when given the chance to aid others in fighting Sauron (i.e. complete his original mission) he flat out refused. And once the Ring was no longer an option, he dedicated himself to ruling over and destroying a tiny backwater region that had never done him any harm, simply out of spite.

Saruman was many things, but Well-Intentioned Extremist was not one of them.

"...the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bide our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order... Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the power would pass to us."

Saruman had spent two thousand years in the body of a Man, observing as the Elves and Numenor dwindled to practically nothing, while Sauron's power only grew. Elrond himself cites the fact Saruman researched Sauron's craft too deeply and that also contributed to his fall. He became fascinated by Ring-making and its uses against Sauron and ultimately came to view such things as mere objects. Note his commentary tO Gandalf - it implies he does not believe in inherent evil any longer. All things can be used for good, no matter how deplorable they may be. The One Ring was no different.

No doubt he wanted power. That is undeniable. But this is not how Saruman started. This is after his mind had been twisted by Sauron.

Saruman is almost a direct parallel of Sauron. Sauron also started off with nobler ambitions you know. he wasn't always just Power for Power's Sake. But Tolkien loves the idea of evil decaying. Sauron and Saruman both eventually came to conclude that they must be doing the right thing and it was the Valar who were in the wrong. Well, Sauron came to think that, and I get the feeling Saruman either thought that as well or he just didn't think about the Valar at all. His memory of who he originally was and where he came from was foggy and I think devotion to the Great Power was more a matter of faith and not I actually know these all powerful gods. And Saruman lost the faith ever all his time in Middle-earth.

That still doesn't mean he's a Well-Intentioned Extremist. It means that he lost sight of his original goal in favor of a new goal, that of ruling over Middle Earth. His ultimate goal was to rule, not to save Middle Earth from Sauron. Oh yes, he could claim that they were the same thing, that he really was just trying to help. His power isn't in his voice for nothing. But Gandalf wasn't fooled, Aragorn wasn't fooled, Theoden wasn't fooled, and you shouldn't be either.

edited 18th Dec '13 2:06:46 PM by CorrTerek

We already have one word for 'Self Righterous Villainous Overlord Gandalf'. It's 'Magneto'.

BA-DA-BUMP!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShTJ90fC34

Speak for yourself. I liked him.

Also, he wouldn't push King Isildur off the cliff. How would he deal with the (more than shattered) relations between the Elves and Men had that possibility happened? And Elrond probably didn't want to fight Isildur (they could've been equally strong), so pushing him off the cliff is not the solution.

As for Saruman, I'm going to go with the stuff said above that he became increasingly corrupted by Sauron. And when you corrupt someone, you exploit that someone's weaknesses. So, even if Saruman had the Ring, he wouldn't have a single chance (also, the Ring obeyed to Sauron and would probably slip off Saruman's finger at one point or another).

Gandalf didn't want to use the Ring because it was not his mission to directly fight Sauron, but rather engage in strategy and certain unpredictable actions and plans (according to the mission given to the Istari).

edited 18th Dec '13 6:38:48 PM by Quag15

Movie Elrond is cools. I don't see why people would dislike him. The dude saved Frodo and his prophecy of Arwen's fate was pretty moving.

'Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.'

Yeah, I liked Elrond in the movies. He was like the hardass dad who just wants what's best for his kid.

You know, I'd rather deal with damaging relations between men and elves than Sauron returning. If I were Elrond, I think I'd find the latter scenario much more of a priority.

edited 18th Dec '13 7:04:38 PM by TobiasDrake

Besides, you could claim it was an accident.

They were on a cliff, and extremely tired after a long battle.

It might have worked.

Also:

…..Did you realize how hilarious that sounded when you wrote it or it is one of those things that only becomes clear in hindsight?

"Take it, Gandalf!"

"Don't! Tempt me, Frodo! I dare not take it… I would kick far too much ass…"

"…"

edited 18th Dec '13 7:33:39 PM by kalel94

Quoth the Nostalgia Chick:

"I get the ring, I could become this◊ or this◊! You? Worst case scenario? This◊, because you do not matter and you have no power."

edited 18th Dec '13 7:34:01 PM by TobiasDrake

I remember that.

Was she talking about Frodo?

Because I imagine his response would be something like "Yeah yeah, I have no power. I'll think on that as I strut over this large collapsed area where the greatest army of Men ever is buried with all their "power" and I go on to enjoy the closest thing to Heaven that exists."

It was Gandalf talking to Frodo.

Ya know, I have made this topic a few places and there is a common thread emerging and thais the mocking of Saruman. For instance, someone posting a "hahahaha" image while quoting me on saying he was a peer of Sauron.

Yes, Saruman was a trifling darkness compared to Sauron who in turn was a trifling darkness compared to Melkor. Saruman was no Devil and he was not even close to rivaling the Devil's Right Hand. People make fun of Sauron for just copying Morgoth you know so you can imagine what they say about someone just copying the copycat and failign at i

But I think this is an important element in why he is my favorite Tolkien villain. It fits so wel in the spirit of Lord of the Rings which is nothing like The Silmarillion. LOTR is the tale of the weak overcoming teh mighty, of relative nobodies unseating legends. This is not about High kings and gods, it's about little folk with hairy feet that nobody cares about for the most part.

And into this story blasts Saruman in all his grandeur and his ambitions and dreams of being a Power just like you read about in The Sil. Only he falls far, far short of that. All his hopes and ideas come crashing down around his ears and now he is looked at as "Sauron-lite." Only...he was far more humanized than Sauron. In fact, he was probably better explored than Melkor.

I find it interesting that you blame the films for simplifying Saruman's character when they gave him way more screen time in the films than he had in the books. Although the films didn't really go into his treachery against Sauron like the books did.

And about whether Gandalf/Saruman could master Sauron, the letter does go on to say that Gandalf would still be corrupted by the Ring. So while Gandalf might be able to master Sauron in a constest of power if he had the Ring, he would not be able to master the One Ring itself. (It should perhaps be noted that the opposition was so weak that Sauron didn't even need to be wearing the Ring to win.) Only a being more powerful than Sauron (Vala) or doesn't hold the same concept of power as Sauron (Tom Bombadil) would be able to master the Ring.

edited 25th Dec '13 7:59:22 PM by shiro_okami