Writing Men vs. Writing Women

I guess I've always thought that if you're looking for a solution to something, you should make it clear that you are asking for advice, and that you should not give unwarranted advice to people. If you are trying to vent to someone and they keep giving you solutions, particularly ones that you already know do not work (generally because they are the obvious ones), it comes off as very condescending.

So why wouldn't the same apply to how women think about their bodies? What makes us so sure that overdescribing female bodies in female POVs is more unrealistic than overdescribing male emotions in male POVs?

Exactly. The same applies to female characters and their bodies: Of course we expect them to pay attention when the situation calls for it, and there could be particular characters who think differently about it. But in general, when it just comes out of the blue, we find it strange.

From Psychology Today: 'Here's where women differ from men. If the other person is upset, or the emotions are disturbing, women's brains tend to stay with those feelings. But men's brains do something else: They sense the feelings for a moment, then tune out of the emotions and switch to other brain areas that try to solve the problem that's creating the disturbance.'

From Boundless: 'Women are better at describing in a complex way emotional reactions they would have to different life situations compared to men.'

edited 13th Dec '13 6:51:14 PM by Meklar

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Especially considering statistically, more women perform plastic surgery than men - suggesting that a fair proportion of the former group are prone to noticing and scrutinising her own appearance. Plus, it's been frequently reported how large breasted women find their bodies clumsy/cumbersome - particularly around certain activities, such as running without a sports bra, etc. In that regard, one could even argue that "over-describing" female bodies while in female POV may be more "common" than "under-describing" it.

edited 13th Dec '13 7:22:55 PM by peasant

The idea that systems thinking and emotional empathy are opposite sides of a scale rather than two entirely different skills is ringing extremely high on my bullshit meter.

Also, as the same article notes, they are two bell curves that largely overlap. Statistics versus individuals is a thing. If you have one male character who has this apparently feminine trait, that's no problem. Two or three, whatever. It's hard to say the exact threshhold as to where it becomes unbelievable but it's not exactly as if statistically improbable things never ever ever happen in fiction.

Also the idea that alpha apes behaved more "femininely" is interesting. I by this logic you go with a more stereotypically "masculine" archetype for losers but for leaders and such it's alright to feminize?

edited 13th Dec '13 7:58:05 PM by ohsointocats

"Females tend to get more plastic surgery" ...Because females have way higher expectations for what their bodies should look like than men? That's not women being more aware of their body on average than men, that's society's expectations for gender.

There's nothing wrong with a female POV being very aware of her body (though, unless she's going through puberty, it should be awareness tempered by a good deal of familiarity).

However, if her awareness is focused mostly on her sexual characteristics, then it's either going to come off as unnatural, or it will make her seem like she's got a bad case of Selfcest.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

That. What Raven said.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable

Yes, expectations may be higher. However, a woman would need to first be conscious of her appearance in order to feel that she doesn't meet said expectations; AND must think about it enough to feel she has to do something about said appearance in order to address said perceived shortcomings.

Which she is expected to do, not doing naturally. That's not a contradiction you've offered, but an affirmation of the argument you're trying to counter.

In short, you don't get it because you're not thinking this through.

Nous restons ici.

It doesn't matter whether it's natural or a product of environment. Point is that such thoughts have to first be going through a woman's mind - ergo, mentioned in her POV - in order for her to be acting on them. You can't make a conscious action without first thinking of doing said conscious action. Meaning, there isn't anything unnatural or unusual about it showing up in writing for a female POV.

P.S.: As a side note, I'd also like to argue that a woman isn't expected by society's norms to perform plastic surgery to meet cultural expectations even when she doesn't meet said expectations as to what "beauty" is. In fact, I'd say it's very much the opposite; with the overall tone being that performing elective, cosmetic surgery is taking things a step too far. However, that's beside the point on this debate.

edited 14th Dec '13 3:49:58 PM by peasant

I have to disagree with basically everything you just said.

A lot of our behavior is in fact subconscious. You don't need to think about doing something in order to feel compelled to do it. If we perfectly understood everything we did, Freudian/Jungian psychoanalysis wouldn't exist. If there is one person who understood themselves so totally in all of Human history, they have not yet been discovered.

yey

Subconscious bias exists. Ask women to specify their gender at the start of a math test and their scores will actually drop. That's a proven, tested fact. According to you it's totally intentional.

That makes no sense.

So, once again:

And you're uneducated on the issues you're actually pretending to authority on.

Nous restons ici.

@ peasant: Just a minor nitpick, but when you say "more women perform plastic surgery than men", are you saying that more women are plastic surgeons than men or that more women get plastic surgery than men? What you say is the former, but the context you give makes it sound like the latter. The person who performs plastic surgery is the plastic surgeon, the person who gets plastic surgery is the person the plastic surgeon operates on.

Not pretending to be an authority on anything. Just giving opinions, same as you. Also, not talking about anything remotely to maths. My example is limited strictly to physical appearance, how much awareness of it would fall within the norms of a female POV, and consequently whether or not a somewhat heavy-handedness of its appearance is necessarily "wrong" when writing a female POV.

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True. However, I feel it's fair to say that some things would involve more awareness than others. And while we may not be fully aware of why we want to do something, we are often at least aware of SOME of the reasoning and that we want to do the deed itself. So, for instance, before a woman commits to wanting to have plastic surgery done on herself, she would at the very least be aware that she wants it done and some of the reasoning behind said desire.

The reason I keep reiterating on the plastic surgery thing is because I feel it is the most relevant to the main issue and the principle in question - while true in this situation - probably can't be generalised across all situations. Granted, this does not make it de facto true by default, I feel that it provides evidence towards the argument that being more descriptive towards appearance when writing for a female POV, compared to a male one, isn't necessarily as big a faux pas as people make it out to be.

I say "argument" and "evidence" because there's no real way for any of us to get inside the heads of every woman in the world and then completley assess and analyse the content of their thoughts in order to produce a definite answer. As such, it's an opinion open to debate.

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Lol! Touche shiro. What I intended to say was receive plastic surgery. Whoops

edited 15th Dec '13 1:31:25 PM by peasant

Male writers fixate on sexual characteristics. And not even in the right way. Why would a woman get plastic surgery on her boobs? "To make them bigger and be more attractive to men, of course," he thinks. There's not even "Hm, my boobs are uneven sizes, I want them to be even, so I'm going to get plastic surgery." The fact that most things having to do with appearance for women have to do with other women and not men is never considered... and that's frightful. There is no consideration of an actual perspective of a person who does these things, just a man's (outsider) perception of a woman.

Good point. I think most women wear high heel shoes to impress other women. Like a guy would really care that she's wearing designer shoes.

Fashion is not a sex signal, it's all about status.

I think women also wear make up/high heels/fashion etc. for themselves. They like how it makes them feel. It's not for other people.

That I do not understand. Unless you're standing in front of a mirror, you can't actually see how you look, so how can your appearance have any effect on how you feel?

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Even if it's for yourself, it is still influenced by other people. High-status things would not be desirable if it were not for others saying the are high-status.

How did you know what words to use to express that opinion? One does not need a mirror constantly, only briefly. Most people hardly need a mirror at all by the time they're twenty when it comes to changes of clothes because they can visualize.

And then it's easy to compare memory to those around you.

This isn't rocket science, people are just seriously determined not to apply their brains about it.

Nous restons ici.

But if you're not using a reflection, then you can just imagine yourself looking however you want, regardless of how you look in reality.

I can understand wanting to look good if you have to see yourself or if other people are looking at you. But if no one is watching you, not even yourself, then what's the point? It's like a tree falling in the forest; if nobody's around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

The idea that men should not care about their appearance is a purely modern invention, and not one that actually applies to many men.

Lying to yourself so thoroughly is difficult.

Also lying around your house all day is equally difficult to maintain. People are going to see you over the course of a normal day. Lots of them. They will react (also on a subconscious level usually) to your appearance, and probably remember it.

I could identify about four dozen people I never shared a class with or spoke to during high school and college, but I saw them enough to know them by sight. I never paid attention to them either; I simply saw them enough they are now permanent fixtures in memory. The fact lineups are even considered a useful investigative tool not only for those who witnessed a crime but for those who might have seen the suspect leaving the scene or arriving at it is proof that people notice other people whether they're paying specific attention or not.

edited 15th Dec '13 5:42:01 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.

Yes, I totally understand the idea behind adjusting your appearance to affect how others see you. And I understand adjusting your appearance to affect how you see you. It's adjusting your appearance for its own sake, wanting to look good even when no one (yourself included) is actually looking at you, that I don't understand.

I mean, a person's appearance is like Schrodinger's Cat; until someone observes it, it doesn't actually exist.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko