Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think he's trying to use the EU as a lever for a few crumbs of extra Russian aid.
It makes sense, but it's extremely penny-wise and pound-foolish; he's irritating everyone to squeeze out pocket change.
Of what I've read, he wants to dance between the EU and Russia, in an eternal status quo, reaping vague benefits from each, but without ever having to bother to actually commit to a relationship with one side or the other.
V
What Viktor Yanukovych wants is this:
edited 12th Dec '13 5:38:55 AM by demarquis
So:
- The Obama administration oughta stay out of this (American governments like to meddle a lot, don't they?)
- While I understand the dancing between both sides, Yanukovich is playing a game that could cause further damage in the long term;
- Ukraine's economy is in risk of becoming really bad, in case they don't get most benefits from one side or another. They oughta choose a side as fast as possible, or these divisions will further their problems.
Yanukovich is running out of options. At this point, if he doesnt sign the EU agreement, he'll have millions in the street. If he does sign it, he'll likely lose the next election. He's painted himself in a corner. Expect him to punt, or maybe delay and hope the protesters go away.
Beware the Crazy Man.
More than just lose the election. There is a significant portion of the country that doesn't want to join either.
EDIT- And agreed, the US needs to stay out of this one.
edited 12th Dec '13 12:16:34 PM by FFShinra
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Never Trust
What if he orders the troops out? What's the likelihood of another Tienamen?
edited 12th Dec '13 3:52:30 PM by tricksterson
Trump delenda est
The protest is not just made (or made for the most part) by the young people, and Ukraine is more democratic than China. Situations are different.
edited 12th Dec '13 4:11:03 PM by Quag15
Yanukovitch is such a jackass.
"Ukraine's economy is in risk of becoming really bad"
Ukraine's economy is already really bad, it's at the risk of becoming really non-existent.
Well, it's not as bad as, say, Moldova's economy.
edited 12th Dec '13 5:40:40 PM by Quag15
Moldova would be one of those non-existent economies.
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
I think the EU should invest whatever vast amounts of money and time it would take to help modernise and diversify Ukraine's economy and bring it towards the West. Not only would it improve the lives of most Ukrainians, but it would also buy us and our friends huge political power in Ukraine, paving the way for Ukraine's membership in the EU (and the advantages implied by that, such as adopting the various human rights conventions and laws.)
Even if Ukraine didn't prioritise trade relations with the EU after that, at least they wouldn't have to rely on Russia for a lack of options. At least they'd get to choose.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Indeed.
@Stripes - The EU deal was going to make it worse in the short run. It basically consisted of throwing open the market to the west and remove all subsidies. The same conditions being asked by the IMF. Yanukovich won't do that because he knows he'll get even worse protests than what are happening now. That IS, after all, why they need money for the forex reserves...he's been using it to keep the currency from collapsing.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
HGW XX/7
The normally unfunny Guardian cartoonists actually make something pretty funny.
I don't get it?
HGW XX/7
Ukraine is where the UK used to be, and vice versa, as Ukraine moves towards Europe and Britain moves away, politically.
Schild und Schwert der Partei
Wandering Jew
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
This shouldn't be America's gig. I bet there are plenty of people in Ukraine who are sort of warm towards the EU but very cold towards the US, and now we're approaching them as some kind of unified front. (Then again, there probably are also loads of pro-US people who might be less enthusiastic about the EU.)
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
@Shinra
I agree. Ukraine is in a really unenviable position.
edited 14th Dec '13 9:29:54 AM by stripes-the-zebra
Beware the Crazy Man.
The EU backed off. McCain speaks to protestors.
"Ukraine and Russia plan to approve a road map to improved trade relations on Tuesday, Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov said Sunday in a late-night interview on Ukraine's national broadcaster, Inter TV.
The announcement comes just hours after a European Union officer said the EU had halted work on a trade agreement with Ukraine, after Kiev failed to show "clear commitment" to signing the deal."
Well, that would appear to be that, then. Anyone want to make any bets on whether or not Yanukovich can last until the next election?
When's the next election again?
Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2015. I doubt he can last that long.
Viktor Yanukyovich is either a Master Troll or a spineless lump.
Seriously, that's the only explanation I can come up with for this latest news: EU foreign policy head Catherine Ashton says VK wants to sign the EU deal after all, "at some time in the future". So...when?
He seems either to be playing a long and intricate game or have no idea what he is doing.
Schild und Schwert der Partei