Ukraine protests: Thousands march through capital
- over 100,000 by some counts
Ukrainian protesters besiege government building
Clashes amid huge Ukraine protest against U-turn on EU
Over 300,000 defy protest ban in Ukraine- "Fierce clashes erupt after protesters take to streets again, chanting "revolution" as anger against government grows."
What started as a protest against the decision not to sign an agreement with the EU seems to have escalated into a "Color Revolution" or "Arab Spring" style movement to force the government to resign. By some reports, the police are using violent tactics to suppress the street protests.
The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country. The current regime of President Viktor Yanukovich is part of that camp. The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society.
EDIT (2/24/2022)
This thread was originally opened in 2013 during the beginning of the revolt in Ukraine that eventually over-threw the dictatorship of the Yanukovyich regime and instituted democratic elections soon afterward. As of this writing, in the aftermath of the Russian invasion that began on 2/23, it is not clear whether or for how long Ukraine will continue to exist as an independent country.
Statements made nine years ago still seem relevant: "The Western half of the Ukraine has historically felt closer to Europe , and wants to move Ukrainian society in that direction. Eastern Ukraine feels culturally closer to Russia, and favors closer relations with that country... The current confrontations can be seen as a clash between these two halves of Ukrainian society." Some people have expressed the view that the confrontation between Russia and Ukraine, beginning in 2014, never really ended.
The invasion is also a result of certain grievances proclaimed by Vladimir Putin, the current President of Russia, and used by him as justification for armed attack and occupation. Western governments, and others around the world, have joined together in condemnation of this attack.
While we do not know what the ultimate outcome of these events will be, this thread will continue to be made available as a place to record news, ask questions and express opinions about the "Crisis in Ukraine."
This map will help track the latest developments.
Do not post anything about the Ukrainian military movement and strategy. This could actually result in casualties.
No discussion regarding nuclear war. As nuclear weapons are not being used by either side, nuclear war is off-topic.
When posting social media links, please (1) state the source [e.g. Reuters reporter? State-sponsored Facebook account? Civilian Twitter?] (2) clarify if it is fact or opinion and (3) summarize the information being presented.
Edited by Tabs on Mar 20th 2022 at 4:26:26 AM
A procrastination in of itself
The U.S. doesn't get a vote when it comes to EU sanctions.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Who Am I?
No, but our diplomatic efforts in that regard obviously matter.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Beware the Crazy Man.
Europe has veto over the US in this, not the other way around.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Radical Moderate
An interesting article on the police reforms.
Shameful Display
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
This is Ukraine so no. Come to think of it this is Eastern Europe so no. The whole region seems to be where dreams go to die, they probably don't like the cold.
Edit: Though at least the Russians turned the despair into good literature.
edited 9th Sep '15 9:53:50 AM by JackOLantern1337
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
I think it should be mentioned here that Ukraine didn't exactly make its Kyiv police reform itself, it imported it. They didn't plan and manage this change itself, they invitied the guys who did the same thing in Georgia and asked them for an encore.
edited 9th Sep '15 12:48:05 PM by KnitTie
Shameful Display
That is mentioned in the article. You think they have a chance? I mean after reading the article I haven't seen anything that makes some form of success impossible, or even particularly unlikely, apart form my suppressions about the region.
Beware the Crazy Man.
I think I'd take the word of the guy who has observed post-Soviet corruption as a career rather than the photogenic Georgian who finds it more important to remove Soviet legacies than to actually reform the police.
What really needs to happen with the police is that they are beholden to their districts, rather than waay high up to the interior ministry. That would help break the internal army mindset, and would also make cops from the local area more willing to resolve crimes in that area. Thats not all of course, but that'd be a better start that creating a second force.
Speaking of, A georgian controlled police force and a georgian controlled odessa. If Saakashvili really is making a power play, he certainly has allies to help him.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Who Am I?
So we're (the US) training and equipping the new Militsia? There's a culture clash: "“Here, when we detain someone, we begin with a relaxing strike,” continued Kapitanska, sipping tea at the kitchen table in a tidy apartment on the outskirts of Kiev that she shares with her retired-cop father and retired-doctor mother. A what? That's apparently what the American trainers asked, too. A “relaxing strike” is a painful blow to a nonessential body part — like, say, the shin — that makes the body go slack or relax."
Heh. Still, it's a good start. Bringing in new people was exactly what they needed to do. As long as they pay them enough not to need to take bribes, and someone prosecutes the offenders, they should do well enough. It's been done before, elsewhere.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Beware the Crazy Man.
With the Ukrainian economy being what it is, thats a rather big assumption. And by cutting out the old police entirely rather than trying to reform them, the new force will be in for quite a jostling, especially as they seem completely beholden to the Georgian in charge.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
HGW XX/7
Who Am I?
Well, as far as I can tell from the article alone, they are being paid a decent wage, the old police are still around, just not on patrol, and response time has gone up. I'm cautiously hopeful.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Beware the Crazy Man.
They're being paid a decent wage for now. The article mentions how they want to fire all the old police, they just haven't been able to do it yet because of pushback from said police.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Why are we so focused on Kyiv's police, anyway? The biggest problem with Ukraine's law enforcement wasn't the petty corruption of the patrolmen, it was the ultramassive corruption of the prosecutor's office, and that practice is alive and well judging by how the people are demanding the resignation of I think the third Chief Prosecutor in a row.
edited 9th Sep '15 4:43:49 PM by KnitTie
Who Am I?
Well, they have to start somewhere, and the bottom of the pyramid is as good a place as any. That said, they obviously need competent prosecutors. And judges.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
The law in the night
Gotta start somewhere and that somewhere is where people see the change.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Radical Moderate
A poll of Ukrainians on their views of the reform process.
Beware the Crazy Man.
So basically, Poroshenko has a year left?
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Who Am I?
Basically, most Ukrainians support reforms, but do not believe they are happening nor are going to happen.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Shameful Display
So who will come after him? Will it be Yulia, or will the Party of Regions come back into power?
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Neither. The radicals and nationalists will benefit in the west and north and those more sympathetic to Russia will gain out in the east, should Poroshenko fail.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Shameful Display
But who will become President?
Beware the Crazy Man.
Either a nationalist (western region) or a radical (central region). You can't predict so far away dude.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Shameful Display
And the difference between the nationalists and the radicals is?
You forgot the US.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."