Marvel-DC Merged Universe Community Project...

Okay, so the idea for this thread is to basically get a group of people together to build a new universe for a world where Marvel and DC characters co-exist from the get go, side by side. This universe will have been naturally formed, and has its own separate continuity that DOES NOT INTERACT with the main continuity from either universe.

A few things to consider below.

• Quite a few characters from both universes will not exist in this continuity. The more heroes and villains there are, the harder it is to keep track of everything. Besides, I don't think many people will be wanting characters like The Red Bee and Squirrel Girl hanging around (There are plenty of heroes and villians from both worlds that would put spoof super heroes—such as Crimson Chin from The Fairly Odd Parents to shame—...yeah, those are the ones that absolutely have to go.) Some characters may even find themselves being merged with other characters, for various reasons...

• Since this universe is going to be unique and completely separate from the marvel and DC multiverses, there ARE GOING TO BE and SHOULD BE quite a few differences in terms of lore, layout of the worlds, background stories, characters, etc. We should draw inspiration from the lore of both stories, and import it with neccesary tweaks, if possible.

• This world should have two characteristics built into it and balanced as perfectly as possible: For instance the more realistic and gritty approach of Marvel combined with a certain amount of the cheerful optimism of the DC world. The world can and should have moments of comedic value intersperced within the drama of the story. The world needs to be something built to be WORTH reading: It of course should have action, comedy, romance, and epic plots and plot twists.Nothing should be light hearted, or completely dark and gritty just for the sake of it. A balanced approach is key. Things should be like this reality unless noted, with the notes being superpowers magic, and a whole bunch of other stuff that naturally come with Super Heroes.

• The storylines must be limited to only a small number of super heroes... as the story unfolds, more and more heroes and villians can be introduced... and their stories shall intertwine.

• SUPERMAN MUST BE NERFED! In addition, other various superheroes should have their powers adjusted, either up or down accordingly. I have no specifics at this time, but this probably does need to happen

• Origin stories will be tweaked to accommodate for the new reality as needed.

• Characters, both heroes and villians WILL die... and most of them WILL stay permanently dead once killed off. In general, things should have a more serious and down to earth tone. Conversely, OCCASIONAL Comic Relief is a must have.

THESE SUGGESTIONS WILL SERVE AS THE FOUNDATION FOR THIS UNIVERSE THAT WE SHALL BUILD!

Now that all that stuff has been covered, here we go:

Things that need to be done:

• Establish a Universal Bible for the canon. Will be tweaked and added to as we bounce around ideas.
• Determine which superheroes and villains should be focused on, and included in the story
• Do some serious world building...
• Come up with storylines, using storylines from the comics as well as developing new storylines, and finding a way to tie them all together.
• Come up with new twists or changes to existing things. This is an Alternate Reality, lets have fun with it!

Okay, lets start bouncing around ideas! Post any ideas you have below.

Also, feel free to discuss the various ideas, and make improvements. Critiquing each others ideas is part of the point of this thread. Please do not be rude, and try to list the positives of peoples ideas alongside the negatives. If I like something, or if the idea is popular enough, I will add it to the official Universal Bible, which will be located in my second post, right below this one.

edited 24th Oct '13 4:13:20 PM by Durzan

The Universal Bible:

<Will Add To When Needed>

Characters:

• Superman: Powers nerfed. Can temporarily sun-dip to get Post-Crisis superpowers. Becomes friends with Spiderman.
• Lex Luthor: Played as an anti-hero.

• Spiderman: Currently toying with the idea of having spider-an accidentally ingesting blue kryptonite, which will render him perfectly healthy and cure his Giant Were-spider Transformation... at least until is gets filtered out of his system.
• Mary Jane: Spiderman's Boyfriend
• Gean Grey/Madelyne Pryor: Friends with spiderman in high school... or something like that.

• Hal Jordan: Green Lantern, only shows up occasionally to help out with world-scale threats or higher.
• Wolverine and other X-Men
• Iron Man
• Batman
• Captain Marvel and/or Shazam: Bucky Bastion is a hero from the WWII era, and was known as Captain Marvel. Gains his powers from Alien Tech instead of a wizard. Shazam is Captain Marvel's grandson, who inherited his grandfathers powers.
• Captain America and Bucky: Bucky dies in WWII.
• Fantastic Four (Maybe? Not really a fan of them...)

• GALACTUS
• PHEONIX

Plotlines:

• Atlantian Civil war between Arthur and Namor...
• Galactus trying to eat the world...
• The Joker gets a symbiote....

Other Ideas:

• Include mutant undertones and references to lead up to the introduction of the X-Men

edited 24th Oct '13 4:13:36 PM by Durzan

Ugh. Fuck Nolan's trilogy. Those movies went way, way too far towards Darker and Edgier. It should be similar in tone to Marvel, but more along the lines of Young Avengers or Captain Marvel rather than Uncanny Avengers or New Avengers. You don't want "occasional comic relief." You want a balance of comedy and drama. You want comedy in the drama. Make the stories fun to read. Look at writers like Peter David, Kieron Gillen and Kelly Sue Deconnick. Even when they're throwing a lot of really serious crap at their characters, they're also including plenty of humour.

Squirrel Girl absolutely should be in the universe. She's a great, fun character, and someone who I think actually deserves to be in a title as it is.

I would strongly, strongly advise against merging characters. There's no point. In particular, merging Mary Jane and Jean Grey is, quite frankly, one of the absolute fucking dumbest ideas I've ever heard. They are completely different characters, with different personalities, with different roles. There is absolutely no point, at all, in merging those two into one person. If the two universes are going to be merged, any characters who appear should be, ultimately, similar to how they are in their original universe. You don't make a Spider-Man without quips, you don't make a Batman who's not a detective, and you don't make a Mary Jane who's Jean Grey. It's just really, really frigging stupid.

Edit: As for a bible, some WW 2 suggestions. Have the Invaders, still. Make it Captain America, Namor, the Human Torch, Bucky and the original Flash, and possibly a couple other DC characters who could be put in the era. Bucky still dies, Captain America still gets frozen. Years later, Namor has a son, who grows up to be Aquaman.

edited 22nd Oct '13 7:35:40 PM by Tiamatty

Personally, I'd just have the Invaders for Justice, which would have all the then-members of both the Invaders, and the Justice Society. (...You know about the JSA, right? ...Right? )

edited 22nd Oct '13 8:22:29 PM by kkhohoho

Yeah, that works, too. Regardless, the rest of my post remains. Cap, Bucky, Namor, Human Torch, original Flash, and whoever else works from DC.

WHY?

Superman's already been nerfed. in his early days, he was basically Mr. New Powers as the Plot Demands.

Okay, who or what is Invader? I'm sorry, but I am only familiar with the movies and TV series.. and I am more familiar with Marvel than I am DC... That, and what little research I did on my own. AND EVEN THEN, I am on

As for the Mary Jane and Gene Grey scenario... You may think it is stupid, but I don't. Do you see me going around and pissing and taking a dump on other peoples ideas? No. (well, with the exception of my cousins...mainly just to try to try and troll him... :D)

The reasoning is actually more for storyline purposes than anything else...

Storyline wise, it is kinda simple...

1. Mary Jane and Jean Grey are the same person (at least with this idea...) 2. Mary Jane is the name she goes by before her powers develop. 3. Once her powers develop,the shock of the initial manifestation of her powers causes her to lose her memories and go to Professor X for help... which eventually leads to her developing a new identity as Gean Grey, and realizing that she is no longer the same person as Mary Jane Watson (Because of the manifestation of her powers, her subsequent case of amnesia, and all the experiences after that changed her, making her more like the Gean Grey we all know and love.) 4. The name Jean Grey is taken as an alias, and is symbolic of her decision to start a new life and cast away all the old. 5. You could also use this as an excuse to give her Multiple Personality Disorder... You have the kind personality of MJ trapped in the same head as the more spunky and violent prone Gean Grey.

There are a few reasons why I want to pull this off... 1. It could lead to all sorts of interesting possibilities... particularly with her relationship with Spider-man, Cyclops, and Wolverine. 2. It gives Spider-man a definite tie to the X-men (Which is important for a storyline that I wish to setup) 3. It is so freaking different, that it would have to fit in its own separate continuity... why not the one where Marvel and DC are set in the same universe? 4. Imagine a scenario where Lex Luthor somehow finds out that MJ (Who is really Gean Grey before her powers manifest..) is a mutant with latent powers... and imagine that he somehow finds out that she has the Phoenix Force trapped within her... What is he likely to do? Well, he would kidnap her and try to transfer the Phoenix Force into himself, naturally... WHICH OPENS UP THE DOOR TO SUPERMAN AND SPIDERMAN TEAMING UP TO GIVE AN EPIC BUTT-WHOOPIN' TO LEX! 5. Any other possible reason that you could think of for this.

As I demonstrated above, I outlined a possible way for them to be made the same person, yet still have their own seperate personality disorders... THE POSSIBILITIES ARE ENDLESS IF YOU JUST OPEN UP YOUR MIND!

Why does superman need to be nerfed? lets see...

1. Even post-crisis Superman is still a game-breaker. He would curb-stomp quite a bit of other heroes and villains from BOTH universes if he were to fight them. Besides, the creators often ignore the limits that they put on him. That is why a Universal Bible is so necessary. We need to define his normal limits, and not let him go past those, UNLESS he goes for a sun-dip. A perfect God character with no flaws is boring. 2. It helps make him more interesting. By limiting his powers, AND STICKING TO THOSE LIMITS LIKE WE WOULD IF WE MAKE A UNIVERSE BIBLE, we make him more relatable, he will have to be more creative when fighting opponents, and it could allow him to grow as a character... 3. Lets have Superman start off with some character flaws and then grow into the guy he is supposed to be in DC. And even then, he shouldn't be perfect.

Now, my suggested limitations for Superman are as follows:

• 1. Treat the energy that fuels his powers similarly to Ki from DBZ. He has to concentrate to use the energy, and he can manipulate it to adjust his powers. EG: He can put all his energy into increasing his damage reduction, or divide it evenly between his powers. The more energy he puts into his abilities, the faster his solar battery reserves drain. For instance, in order to increase his speed, he could divert the energy that he is using to maintain his damage reduction to flight, effectively making him faster, but reducing the amount of force necessary to deal damage to him. In other words, superman has a certain ammount of energy, which he can divide up between his various abilities, effectively allowing him to control how powerful any one ability is at any point in time.
  • What makes this limiting is the fact that when he is using his powers, the more energy he diverts to his powers, the faster the solar energy within his body is consumed. In fact, half the time he is using his powers, he is draining the energy faster than his body can absorb it, which can therefore cause him to lose his powers mid-crisis if he isn't careful.
  • In addition, the amount of energy required to increase the effectiveness, speed, power, and/or range of an ability increases exponentially.

• 2. Flight: In short, his speed is directly proportional to the amount of solar energy he diverts to his flight/running speed. His maximum average speed without putting effort or diverting a significant amount of additional energy to his speed should be no greater than say... Mach 2 (680.58 m/s). However, he would be able to travel faster by diverting additional energy to increase his speed, which would consequently deplete his reserves faster. In addition, as he approaches light speed (If we deem that doing so should be possible), the amount of energy required increases exponentially (this can be rationalized by Einstein's theory of relativity, E=mc^2), so only a sun-dipped Superman could possibly have enough energy to go at light speeds for more than a split-second...Which brings up another point. Superman can go at a fraction of light-speed for no more than a split second... however, he must be moving in a straight line, and doing so severely drains him of solar energy, and could potentially draining all of his reserves down to the last drop.

• 3. Damage Reduction: Superman is not invulnerable, but rather has an invisible barrier that reduces the amount of force that comes in contact with his body via absorption. This effectively gives him damage reduction that is bypassed by magic (think D&D here); ergo, if you hit him with enough force, it will overcome the energy barrier that he maintains around himself to prevent harm (think of it like a force-field). Now, due to limit #1, Superman's damage reduction isn't constant, and fluctuates depending on how much solar energy he diverts to his "force field" at a particular moment. The more energy he diverts to his force field, the more force that is required to overcome it.

• 4. Super Strength: Without any aid whatsoever from solar energy, Superman is naturally 3x as strong as the average male human. With solar energy added, his strength increases substantially. This ability is tied directly to his damage reduction; ergo... the forcefield increases the amount of force he can apply to objects in addition to the amount of force he can absorb without getting injured.

• 5. Ice Breath, Heat Vision, X-Ray Vision, Freezing Breath: Remains pretty much the same, although the range for these abilities depends on how much solar radiation he diverts to amplify or cause the ability. The farther the distance, the larger the amount of energy consumed.

• 6. Enhanced senses: Superman's hearing range is 2x as wide as the average human, and he can hear things clearly up to 5x farther away than the average human. In addition his vision is 5x sharper than the average human, and he can see twice as far as a human. Superman also has dark vision. These abilities are not effected in anyway by solar radiation, and are naturally a part of his Kryptonian heritage.

• 7. Brain Power: Superman isn't really anymore smarter than a human. However, his brain can analyze, process, and reproduce information 3x faster as the average human, effectively increasing his reaction speed.

• 8. Solar Radiation: Yellow Sun Radiation slowly builds up the amount of solar energy stored within his body battery at a fixed rate per hour. In space, this rate is increased to 150% of the normal rate, due to being able to absorb more energy than on earth (Atmosphere scatters some of the radiation). Blue Sun Radiation increases the rate at which he absorbs energy by a factor 0f 200% (aka by 2). If in space, the amount of energy gained per hour is increased from 200% to 250% the normal rate. If exposed to Red Solar Radiation OR Gamma Radiation, Superman gains -150% the normal rate of energy per hour. If in space, this increases to -200%.

• 9. Sun-dipping: Superman can fly into the sun to increase the rate at which he absorbs solar energy by a factor of 60x (In other words, he absorbs 150% of the normal rate per minute instead of per hour). However, if he stays inside the sun too long (over an hour...), he will be driven temporarily insane (AKA, he becomes stoned/high on solar energy)

• 10. Magic and Kryptonite (All kinds): Work as you would expect them too.

• 11. Superman can power up to roughly 150% of his current era power by sun-dipping for... Maybe 10 minutes? I don't know.

Well, I hope that what I listed above sounds reasonable... I just hope that it is easy to comprehend. I am not very good with wording stuff like this... Its just a rough estimate, some of the details can be hammered out, changed, and/or refined later.

________________

Another idea I had was to give Spiderman a power boost by having blue kryptonite get ingested by accident into his blood stream. This allows Spiderman to be able to take down Superman if/when he goes insane or evil.

(Part of the idea I had was for Superman and Spiderman to become friends shortly after they begin their respective careers as super heroes... and then bring Batman into the group much later)

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:30:31 PM by Durzan

The Invaders were a superhero team in World War 2. Marvel's had a few series about them over the years.

If you want Spider-Man and Jean Grey to know each other, have Mary Jane and Spider-Man know each other. There is absolutely no good reason to make MJ and Jean the same person. None. At all. It is a stupid idea. If you want to pull a situation where Jean has Dissociative Personality Disorder, then there's actually already a perfect second personality: Madelyne Pryor. In the mainstream comics, she was a clone of Jean. Turning her into a split personality would be accepted by fans. However, no one - other than you, apparently - actually wants to see MJ and Jean be the same person. It's just a stupid, nonsensical, unnecessary idea.

You want Spider-Man to have an X-Men tie. Fine: Madelyne Pryor and Peter go to school together. She's popular, everyone loves her, and she happens to be nice, even to Peter. Everyone picks on him, but she defends him, not out of any romantic interest, but purely because she hates seeing anyone bullied. It causes Peter to have deep feelings for her. Maybe they could happen to share some club or something, too, to give them a slightly closer acquaintanceship, though not necessarily a real friendship, since she wouldn't hang out with him outside school.

Then she gets her powers and becomes Jean Grey, he recognizes her during some superhero team-up, boom, you've got the connection you wanted.

Peter tells Jean he's Spider-Man, thinking she's still Madelyne. Later, he accidentally reveals his identity to Madelyne when he thinks he's talking to Jean. This makes Madelyne attracted to him, while Jean is attracted to Cyclops, creating the weird relationship you want set up.

There. The basic situation you want without a needless merging of two completely different, unrelated characters.

Also, I really hope you weren't thinking MJ's personality would be based off the MJ from the Sam Raimi Spider-Man trilogy. Because she was hands-down the absolute worst part of that whole trilogy.

That sounds good, just keep in mind that the power levels in general should still make Superman A-List. I think it'd still be okay if he was the best, but just by a tiny bit, or even arguably weaker than other Earth-based heroes like Thor, Captain Marvel, and Captain Ma-

Y'know, I just realized, what are we gonna do about Captain Marvel? I'd say that DC's Billy Batson Captain Marvel is just called Shazam, while Marvel's Mar-Vell and any later heroes to carry that name are called Captain Marvel.

Jean was cloned? when did that happen?

edited 22nd Oct '13 9:53:23 PM by crimsonstorm15

MJ being a clone of Gean could work...possibly, especially after Gean goes Phoenix...

That idea of having Gean and Peter being friends has potential too.What if, to expand the idea even further MJ was actually Gean's cousin, and MJ was introduced to Spidy BY Gean? this Could add a bit more significance and strength to their ties: This girl he knew since childhood and she introduced him to his love.

That might work. A subtle enough of change that wouldn't piss off too many people.

edited 22nd Oct '13 9:57:19 PM by Durzan

As far as your Superman ideas go, he's barely even Superman at that point. You can simply reduce his power levels. He has superstrength, just not at the Hulk's level. He has superspeed, just not at the Flash's level. That sort of thing. Keep him one of the most powerful beings on Earth; it's actually part of his point.

Spider-Man's powers being related to Kyptonite is also stupid. There shouldn't be any Kryptonite in his bloodstream or anything. If he needs to fight Superman, he can simply bring some Kryptonite with him at that point.

Edit: Jean and MJ being friends or cousins would work, sure. Throw in the stuff about MJ having known Peter was Spider-Man since the start, and secretly loved him because of it, and you've got another tangle to the whole relationship.

Crimson: The '80s. After Jean sacrificed herself on the moon in Uncanny X-Men #137, Scott eventually met a woman who looked exactly like her, named Madelyne Pryor. Years later, after Jean returned, it was revealed that Madelyne was a clone of Jean, created by Sinister.

Red M: How about this for the Captain Marvel situation. Billy Batson can be a classic hero, maybe during World War 2. He grew up and retired. He had a family, and his grandson started dating a girl named Carol Danvers. Maybe he uses his powers one last time to save her, and dies in the process, but she picked up some powers, and takes on his name to honour him. Sound reasonable?

Ooh, instead of getting his powers from a creepy old wizard, Billy's powers can come from alien technology, and the same technology gives Carol similar powers.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:02:52 PM by Tiamatty

It's Jean. As in, blue jeans. Except they're gray jeans, so... Jean Grey.

Sounds good. Spidey already has a rubber electro suit, and all his new little Horizon Labs doodads. I could see him keeping some kryptonite in his sock drawer.

edited 22nd Oct '13 9:56:53 PM by RedM

Captain Marvel and Shazam I wouldn't mind including, but... wouldn't they be kinda redundant, unless they were partners or something? Any way to deal with that WITHOUT cutting one of them?

Cuts are going to have to be made for this to work right... there are too many characters NOT to consider cutting some.

Edit: Kryptonite in his bloodstream I don't think would be stupid, if done right. Blue Kryptonite enhances the abilities of humans to a certain extent (at least, according to one episode of smallville), and all they would do to Supes is take away his powers without harming him. It would give Spidy a sort of slight power up... in addition to allowing him to take away Supes powers just by walking near him. It would eventually get filtered out of his body, so it would be temporary...

__________

Supes not even Supes at that point...

Not really...

Most of whats up there is already in canon to a certain extent, minus the whole concentration and having to divert his energy from one power to another... Oh, and his power levels being reduced is exactly what I did... I just put in a mechanism for measuring it. He has an infinite solar battery, and can divert energy to improve his powers, thus if he needs speed and strength, divert energy to speed and DR. The DR stuff has been done before, why not make it so he can increase his DR by focusing on DR. It just means that he has to sacrifice some flight speed or heat vision, that is all, and since he is constantly recharging when in direct sunlight, he already has a constant supply to recharge with. I am just allowing him to use his current abilities at a greater cost is what it ammounts to.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:08:52 PM by Durzan

I don't think Spider-Man needs a power-up. His powers are actually really, really good as they are. He's a great street-level hero. Pretty much any supervillain can pose a real challenge to him, and he's even straight-up overpowered by quite a bunch, but it just forces him to use his wits to defeat them. Make him more powerful, and you take away a lot of what makes him so special.

I have suggestions above for the Captain Marvel situation.

The powerup would just be a slight boost in speed and agility, on top of what he already has, in addition to improving his immune system...

Blue Kryptonite doesn't really do much else other than make you a living red sun for a Kryptonian.

Nothing game breaking for him. It makes his body more effective... at most I think we'd see a 25% increase...

Either way, it was just a thought I was toying with...

Edit: apparently, all it really is supposed to do on humans is " purifies water and makes crops grow even in the harshest of environments and humans, by ingesting it, become perfectly healthy, giving off its radiation, implying that it purges toxins and diseases (A sheriff said it was responsible for him not contracting any illness during his childhood)."

That doesn't sound like it would do anything at all for Peter, other than maybe be a solution to his Spider Metamorphisis problem... (Ooh, thats a thought...)

I don't know how it would affect Spider-man in all honesty, so I'd like to think that it would increase his speed and agility slightly. ______

So whattya got for Captain Marvel?

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:16:20 PM by Durzan

The system you came up with for reducing Superman's power levels isn't really Superman. Having him move his power levels around is silly. Just leave him essentially as he is, just at whatever level you want him at.

Spider-Man doesn't really need a boost to his agility. He's already incredibly agile. And he doesn't need to be able to hurt a Kryptonian; just give him some normal Kryptonite for that.

Now that you've mentioned it affecting his mutation, though, that does raise an idea. Don't let Kryptonite be at all involved in his origin. He got his powers from a modified spider, and that's it. However, he could potentially use some Kryptonite in a serum he uses to try to remove his powers at one point when the pressure gets to be too much for him.

And my Captain Marvel idea was this: How about this for the Captain Marvel situation. Billy Batson can be a classic hero, maybe during World War 2. He grew up and retired. He had a family, and his grandson started dating a girl named Carol Danvers. Maybe he uses his powers one last time to save her, and dies in the process, but she picked up some powers, and takes on his name to honour him. Sound reasonable?

Ooh, instead of getting his powers from a creepy old wizard, Billy's powers can come from alien technology, and the same technology gives Carol similar powers.

Makes sense, although there was a reason why I made it blue kryptonite instead of the normal green stuff which can kill him. Blue takes away Supes powers without harming him at all.

Made the first update to the Universal Bible. (Its the second post.) Added Characters and included some of you guy's suggestions.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:58:21 PM by Durzan

Okay, lets start bouncing around some more ideas.

Does anyone got anything?

Perhaps an idea for a basic plot?

I was thinking of having the story start off with two super heroes: Namely, Superman and Spider-man. Begin with their origin stories and have them presented side by side. Then have them go through their respective adventures, eventually meeting up and becoming friends. As the adventures progress, have other heroes become inspired by both Supes and Spiderman, and introduce these heroes slowly... adding in their points of view in time. All throughout it all, there will be subtle and not so subtle hints of Racism against Mutants. Spidey and Supes eventually team up with the X-men to do...something. Then, Eventually everything culminates with a big world-wide threat that causes the heroes to join forces in an effort to defend Earth. Hal Jordan comes in to warn everybody about the threat, and to try to get everyone to evacuate... But the heroes would prefer to stand and fight against the the threat of...Galactus. After a bit of thinking and probably getting their butts handed to them on a silver platter, the heroes come to the conclusion that the only way to truly stop him is to unleash the Phoenix Force within Gean Grey and point it in the general direction of that dispecable Planet Eater.

Bada Bing, first twenty or so issues/ episodes right there! Whaddya say guys, this is supposed to be a community project after all... So what do you think?

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:55:35 PM by Durzan

I don't know, I think I'd make the Fantastic Four the first modern superheroes, with Superman being the second one to appear, and rumours about Batman starting up at the same time. Have Spider-Man show up a few months after them. You can start the story with Spider-Man showing up, just have it established that the FF and Superman appeared shortly before. Then other superheroes start showing up around the same time, and talk of mutants also starting up at that point, with the X-Men going public a few months after Spider-Man shows up.

Any particular reason for that order?

(To be honest, I like the Fantastic Four villians more than the Fantastic Four themselves... With the exception of the human torch.)

I'd be willing to include them, but I am not that big a fan of FF... so I want to understand your reasoning. But hey, this is supposed to be a community project. :D

edited 22nd Oct '13 11:19:25 PM by Durzan

Truthfully, it's mostly for the history. They're the "First Family of Comics." They were Marvel's first superheroes. They started the whole thing. I feel like that history deserves to be recognized. I'm not really a big Fantastic Four fan, either, but I have tremendous respect for what they accomplished, and what they represent. There wouldn't be a Spider-Man without them. So I just like the idea of them always coming first. Even in the superhero story I'm writing - which is largely an X-Men rip-off - the lore establishes a Fantastic Four-like group as having been the first modern superheroes.

No he wouldn't. Superman is about the same level as Thor, and Thor is capable of being challenged.

Superman would have excellent opponents from the Marvel pool, whom I've already mentioned before. But let me just add a few:

Vulcan vs Superman. Gladiator vs Superman. Any herald of Galactus versus Superman. Dormammu vs Superman.

Hell, if anything, Superman is underpowered against all of them.

That's the same mistake that every person who doesn't like the character makes. He's not perfect, and he's not without flaws. Your entire premise is faulty right from the start.

That's YOUR opinion. Don't speak for everyone. Especially fans like me.

For one thing, powers won't be stuck to. Name one character who hasn't had a power/skill increase at some point. Spider-man, Wolverine, The Flash—hell, even Cyclops, the most straightforward superhero in comics, has had power increases at times. Batman has slowly gone from being a millionaire to a multi-billionaire.

There is no way any sort of "this is what their powers is" mandate is going to stick.

Second, Superman is already plenty creative. New 52 has a Superman that benchpresses a planet and he had deal with powerful enemies very creatively. Hell, Marvel had the Nova series a not long ago where he had to fight the likes of Galactus, the Sphinx, and Ego the living planet and had to think creatively for all of them. Let me make it clear: power does NOT indicate how "clever" a character is. Only good writing does, and good writing can work for ANY power level, just like bad writing can make things boring at any level.

Again, this shows a misunderstanding of what Superman even is.

And your ideas for his powers are TERRIBLE. Superman's power set is part of what makes him recognizable. You can't change it too dramatically. Once you do, he ceases to BE Superman. Even when Byrne relaunched the character, he kept the powers everyone recognized. And hell, if I remember, he later said he thought he scaled back too much.

edited 23rd Oct '13 3:12:47 AM by KingZeal