Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbhAvI6WhoU
and what about?
edited 5th Jun '18 12:46:15 PM by Wazzupguys
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Oslo? Nobody wanted to actually implement that. Not Israel, not the Palestinians, nobody.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Don't drop links without a summation.
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Video looks like (I only skimmed it) it has Rabin's speech when he signed Oslo at the beginning, then a montage of Palestinian atrocities (suicide bombings, lynches etc), and I think I saw something about Bibi signing the Wye River Memorandum, too.
The memorandum is from 1998? Wow, Bibi has been in politics for a long time.
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Bibi was an MK since '88 and has held various government positions since '91. He's an old hand, definitely.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Yeah, I remember the name of Benjamin Netanyahu since I was a kid. He popped up a lot in Saudi news as the face of the Israeli government.
... And no wonder, Wikipedia says he was premier of Israel from 1996 to 1999.
edited 8th Jun '18 7:51:45 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
He is the longest serving leader of Israel since Ben Gurion, so its no surprise.
Big damn wall of text.
The political, cultural, social, and economic views of Mr Netanyahu are very different from those of any other Israeli head of government.
While all others had theirs formed either in the European Yiddishland (whose context was very different from that of the countries where it once existed) or in the Holy Land, his were shaped during his youth in the USA, deeply influenced by post-Eisenhower Republican party ideology and the Austrian School of economics.
He made that quite clear in the two books which can be seen as his manifestoes, titled something like Terrorism: How The West Can Win and A Place In The Sun.
To Netanyahu’s method, Israel is an advanced outpost of Western Civilisation among the barbarian hordes, a besieged citadel destined to play a decisive part in a clash of titanesque proportions; which puts him in full agreement with some of the most rabid anti-Zionists equating Israel to the Crusader Kingdom, a transplant alien to that place never taking root in the land.
His social and economic vision is that of a miniature Gilded Age America, where The Market looms large over the economy while government keeps itself busy with military, police, and old-time-religion.
And that has deep implications for the relationship between Israel and its superpowered protectress.
Until the second Netanyahu premiership in 2009, Israel was always careful that its support in the US political scene be scrupulously bi-partisan, so to not even appear to interfere in domestic politics and so not to bind itself to one side of the aisle.
Netanyahu has wed, nay, welded the cause of Israel to that of the GOP at a time when the latter was going full-steam backwards; and since Mr Obama happened to begin his presidency at about that time, the Netanyahu household made very clear where it and therefore Israel stood. The bad blood between the two figures is why Obama has this anti-Israel image bought wholesale by so many.
Moreover, since Israel’s inception in 1948, its successive governments saw US Jews as the backbone of their Stateside support. These tend to vote for the Democratic party, and when affiliated to a synagogue they tend to go Conservative and Reformed Judaism, two currents which are not recognised by Israel’s Byzantine (Ottoman actually) unholy mix of state and religion (they also have Shariah law courts in case you aksed).
So at present, that base of support has shifted to those fire-and-brimstone Evangelicals for whom Israel is a plot device in their scenario for The End of the World as We Know It.
This is how, almost singlehandedly, Bibi has done more to undermine Israel’s cause in the USofA than all the combined efforts of Al-Jazeera of various stripes, the BDS hydra, campus hipsters, Helen Thomas, the Haus of Saud, Pat Buchanan, Roger Waters, and the Beeb’s night watchman.
They should be the ones sending him champagne and cigars.
edited 12th Jun '18 2:44:10 AM by AlityrosThePhilosopher
Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
https://ph.yahoo.com/news/west-bank-prince-william-speaks-palestinian-country-151355241.html
Prince William dropped by Palestine and speaks of British support.
https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2018/06/israel-isaac-herzog-avi-gabbay-tzipi-livni-zionist-camp.html
Zionist Union(Labor and Hatnuah) is on the brink of splitting back since Herzog was chosento be the chairman of the Jewish Agency.
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It's immaterial, since their policies are carbon copies of each other anyway.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Netanyahu is making a serious push to pass that segregation bill that’s been rattling around the Knesset for a few years now. Apparently, he wants it in law by the end of the month.
I see Israel wants to cede its title as "The Closest Thing to a Liberal Democracy in the Middle East" to Tunisia.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
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The Apartheid section was removed from the bill and replaced with what's basically more-of-the-same that we already see in east Jerusalem and other such places.
Also I guess we now have conclusive proof that Bennett is pro-Apartheid.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The revised version does sound like the sort of weasel-words that could still be used to promote segregation with legal backing from a sufficiently sympathetic court, and will definitely be used to promote further colonisation of the West Bank. Is Arabic still getting dropped as an official language?
What's precedent ever done for us?
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There's nothing in that article about Arabic, so I presume so, but frankly, considering the situation in e.g. France and the Baltics, having Arabic as an official language is supererogatory.
That aside I doubt the courts would be sympathetic to that sorta thing you're mentioning because it is, in fact, illegal.
The updated draft of the law proposal, from Haaretz, no paywall. I couldn’t find any official source for the time being, so it’s given as is.
It is, however, given in the language of the proposed sole language of the state, for those who can make head or tails of it. Nota bene: stricken text of the modified parts.
Proposed Basic Law: Nation-State, PDF file
As of now, and since independence, Both Hebrew and Arabic are official languages, and although the proposed law tells of a special status for Arabic and of not harming the standing of Arabic prior to this law, well it does abolish its status as official language of the state.
Reminds me of that old joke Canadians used to tell me (before apologising), about alleged road signs on highways at the Ontario/Quebec border, saying “Welcome to Quebec. Maintenant démerdez-vous !” (~ now get out of that shit).
And no, it does not make it all OK, one can soothe oneself saying “we ain’t no RTE’s Turkey, yet”, sure enough. Now, looking how things have been going since Netanyahu’s accession to premiership in 2009, the general direction looks more like Antalya than Montreal.
Edited by AlityrosThePhilosopher on Jul 16th 2018 at 12:09:05 PM
Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
Oh, bother.
Even if it's not outright Jim Crow or apartheid, it's definitely a huge step in that direction. It's bad.
Disgusted, but not surprised
I’d say it’s in the direction of many failed and rogue states in that region, Not That There’s Anything Right With That.
Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
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I translated the aforementioned document (which seems pretty official to me). Do note that IANAL and therefore there might be mistakes and other such things.
Updated bill – only clause 7 was changed, other clauses are the same as the bill from 10.07.2018. Because of the change in clause 7, the reservations about the former wording of clause 7 were deleted.
Basic Law bill: Israel – the nation-state of the Jewish people
- a. Eretz Yisrael is the historic homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
b. The State of Israel is the nation-state of the Jewish people, in which it realises its natural, cultural and historic right to self-determination.
c. The realisation of national self-determination in the State of Israel is uniquely for the Jewish nation. - a. The name of the State is "Israel".
b. The State's flag is white, has two teal lines near its edges and a teal Magen David in its centre.
c. The national symbol is the seven-armed menorah, with olive branches to each side and the word "Israel" underneath it.
d. The anthem of the State is "Hatikvah".
e. Details regarding the national symbols shall be set in law. - The whole and unified Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel.
- a. Hebrew is the language of the State.
b. The Arabic language has special standing; the ordering of the usage of the Arabic language in or in interaction with national bodies shall be according to law or set in law.
c. This clause shall not harm the status the Arabic language was accorded in practice before this Basic Law was enacted. - The State shall be open to Jewish aliyah and the Gathering of Israel.
- a. The State shall work to ensure the safety of the members of the Jewish people and its citizens that are in trouble or captivity because of their Jewishness or citizenship.
b. The state shall act in the Diaspora in order to preserve the bond between the State and the members of the Jewish people.
c. The State shall act to preserve the cultural, historic and religious history of the Jewish nation among the Jewish Diaspora. - The State sees the development of Jewish settlement a national value and will act to encourage and advance its establishment and strengthening.
- The Jewish calender is an official calender of the State, alongside which the Latin calender shall also serve as an official calender; the usage of the Jewish calender and Latin calender shall be set in law.
- a. Yom Ha'atsma'ut is the official national holiday.
b. Yom HaZikaron and Yom HaShoah are official memorial days.
- The Shabbat and the Jewish holidays are the set resting days in the State; non-Jews have the right to rest in their Shabbat and holidays; details shall be set in law.
- This Basic Law cannot be changed except by a Basic Law that was accepted by a majority of Members of the Knesset.
Edited by desdendelle on Jul 16th 2018 at 5:50:07 PM
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Israel approves controversial 'Jewish nation state' law
The "Jewish nation state" bill downgrades Arabic as an official language and says advancing Jewish settlement is a national interest.
It also states that the "whole and united" Jerusalem is its capital.
Israeli Arab M Ps condemned the legislation, but Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu praised it as a "defining moment".
The bill, backed by the country's right-wing government, says that "Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it".
It was passed after a stormy session in the Knesset that lasted more than eight hours. Sixty-two M Ps voted for the bill, with 55 against.
However some clauses were dropped following objections by Israel's president and attorney-general, including a clause that would have enshrined in law the creation of Jewish-only communities.
Israeli Arabs make up about 20% of the Israel's population of about nine million people.
They have equal rights under the law, but have long complained of being treated as second class citizens and say they face discrimination and worse provision of services such as education, health and housing.
Arab MP Ahmed Tibi said the bill's passing represented the "death of democracy".
Adalah, an Arab rights NGO, said the law was an attempt to advance "ethnic superiority by promoting racist policies".
Last week Mr Netanyahu defended the law, saying: "We will keep ensuring civil rights in Israel's democracy but the majority also has rights and the majority decides."
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I'm going to quibble about one particular thing: the law specifically says that Arabic's status will not be hurt as a result from it, so the "downgrades Arabic" part is nonsense.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Depends on your definition. It means that there is significantly less ground for supporting Arabic in future, at least - the way I read it was that current Arabic support will remain, but replacement items/services brought in when the old ones are phased out will not have to support Arabic.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Well, they're not wrong — it's selective enforcement — but holy fuck it's bad that this is the case. Fuck's sake, those MPs and the prosecution are fuckdumbs. Seriously.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground