Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
(Avatar by Coffee)
Huh, TIL.
Anyway, just in that both Hamas and PIJ claimed responsibility for the mortars. (Guy is Ynet's Arab Affairs reporter.)
(Avatar by Coffee)
Hey, Hamas and PIJ, can you please not make the chances for another Gaza operation higher with your mortars and rockets? We (read: everybody involved) need another Gaza operation like we need warts. Kindly stop.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
I do wonder how much choice they had in the matter. Shutting down the Nakba Day protests after an Israeli massacre is going to make angry people [i]really[/i] angry, and their whole brand is ‘at least we’re not colluding with the IDF like Fatah’. This is probably the cheapest way available for them to say ‘yes, we share your outrage’, and I do wonder how worried the locals actually are about another lawn-mowing, considering how grim conditions are in the Strip already. At least 97% of the water there is undrinkable, after all (and that’s bad news on multiple levels, because as we saw in Flint, Michigan, water contamination that severe does shit to people’s brains).
i really hope Avi Gabbay wins the next elections in Israel.
(Avatar by Coffee)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Well, that only works if the protests were spontaneous and all signs are pointing to Hamas organising them. Pipe-dream. The Israeli Left has been on decline since the second Intifadha and doesn't show any sign of stopping.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Define ‘organised’. Hamas certainly endorsed the protests and assisted with infrastructure, but the idea behind them was from an independent protest group that had been planning them since 2011. Further details. Plus, while the number of protesters dropped hard on Nakba Day, hundreds still showed up despite a Hamas crackdown and a humanitarian crisis. I think it’s legit to call it a grassroots movement that Hamas simply helped with - that certainly gels with what journalists on the ground with the protesters were saying at the time, and with the massive diversity of protest tactics we saw.
O Sleepless Mustelid
Desdendelle could be referring to the evidence that Hamas offered some people money to run towards the fence and get shot, in the hope of increasing tension.
"We knew the world would not be the same. A few people laughed, a few people cried. Most people were silent."
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Which evidence would that be? Israel Hayom made that claim, but I’m not sure Netanyahu’s personal mouthpiece is a terribly reliable source.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Israeli forces shot a medic, Razan al-Najjar, while she was treating an injured protester at the Palestinian border. This is blowing up all over social media - expect to see her name a lot in the next few days.
Oh, bother.
Last time I checked it's a war crime to shoot a medic. Shooting a medic in this situation seems even less excusable.
Disgusted, but not surprised
A procrastination in of itself
War crimes are pretty common in the conflict, the ICC tecnicly has jurisdiction over the West Bank and Gaza now but are limited in their ability to act, they’ve no jurisdiction over Israel itself.
Plus the ICC tends to go after national leadership, not low level flunkies just following orders.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
...which is a problem since not all war crimes are done on orders.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
edited 2nd Jun '18 5:25:07 AM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Oh, bother.
Every bullet? Really? Yeah, I can see why they'd delete that tweet. Fat lot of good that did, given that this is the goddamn Internet, where nothing truly vanishes.
Seriously, who is in charge of the IDF's social media account? They need to be replaced.
edited 2nd Jun '18 5:39:50 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
A procrastination in of itself
X3 When war crimes are just the actions of individual bad actors they don’t occur with the frequency that they do in this conflict. Likewise they tend to be prosecuted by the relevant state.
edited 2nd Jun '18 5:40:24 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
There’s a reason that ‘we know where every bullet landed’ became a meme during the embassy opening massacre.
What's precedent ever done for us?
The world's "most moral" military, ladies and gentlemen.
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Israel is slowly becoming Trump.
Or Trump has affected the world beyond any measure I would have thought possible.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Oh, bother.
Pretty sure Netanyahu has always been like that.
Actually, Netanyahu has much more in common with Obama than with Trump.
both Netanyahu and Obama have shown weak or little to no leadership on several ocasions.
Trump however, has a lot in common with Yair Lapid, as both Trump and Lapid are outsiders who have no idea what they are doing.
edited 5th Jun '18 3:15:44 AM by Wazzupguys
Oh, bother.
Except Bibi's administration also has tons of scandals, while Obama's did not.
edited 5th Jun '18 3:19:56 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
Also, Bibi has been kind of aggressive, while Obama is not. Hell, he just managed to get Germany say "no" to Israel for what must be the first time ever.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Trump showing weak leadership? Gosh, can’t think of a single time that has happened.
In unrelated news, charges against two IDF soldiers for shooting and killing an unarmed, fleeing Palestinian teenager have been dropped. The defence successfully argued that so many IDF soldiers have avoided charges for shooting Palestinians that punishing these two would be ‘selective enforcement’ of the law.
No, I am not kidding. That’s actually what happened.
What's precedent ever done for us?
So if crimes against humanity are committed often, its ok?
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
It's totally possible.
Echoing hymn of my fellow passerine | Art blog (under construction)