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Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.

At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.

So, let's start off:

At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.

The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".

Key issues of the talks:

  • Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.

  • Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.

  • Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.

So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.

Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:

edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12501: Nov 28th 2017 at 1:40:03 PM

That would mean them doing their job for a reason other than antisemitism, the human rights council generally doesn’t do shit if it’s not for reasons of antisemitism.

I’m pretty sure some of the governments on the human rights council would only save a puppy from a burning building if they could blame Jews for starting the fire. But that doesn’t mean them saving the puppy is wrong, just that they’re doing it for all the wrong reasons.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#12502: Nov 28th 2017 at 2:11:37 PM

I mean, Desdendelle definitely has a point. Need I remind you all that some of the most common antisemitic myths are "Jews control [x business] and use their economic influence for nefarious plans"? making a UN sanctioned list of business related to jewish people that commit human rights abuses is practically giving Neo-Nazis a whole goldmine of propaganda.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12503: Nov 28th 2017 at 2:33:09 PM

Neo-Nazis are obsessed with Muslims nowadays, among other immigrants. Jews are no longer the stereotypical transnational ethnic minority, so they have juicier targets.

Plus, since when do Nazis care about human rights, or even entertain the notion?

edited 28th Nov '17 2:34:03 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12504: Nov 28th 2017 at 2:36:45 PM

[up][up] I’d content that the Nazis were given the propaganda goldmine when a bunch of Israeli businesses decided to be complicit in human rights violations.

A list of such business certain is something the Nazis will use, and that’s probably part of why the list is being done, the motives behind this aren’t going to be benign.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#12505: Nov 28th 2017 at 2:59:15 PM

Neo-Nazis are obsessed with Muslims nowadays, among other immigrants. Jews are no longer the stereotypical transnational ethnic minority, so they have juicier targets.

(Following links are all NSFW) Someone should have told Neo-nazis that, they haven't realized.

Plus, since when do Nazis care about human rights, or even entertain the notion?

Like with freedom of speech, Gay rights and rape, they only pretend to care because it lets them attack a target of their bigotry.

I'd content that the Nazis were given the propaganda goldmine when a bunch of Israeli businesses decided to be complicit in human rights violations.
UN sanctioned is the key point.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12506: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:07:54 PM

[up]UGH. Holy shit, turns out I was flat-out wrong. I'm genuinely surprised that this crap still exists. Why do they even bother?

And I assume they only care about the UN when it suits their purposes, too.

edited 28th Nov '17 3:08:22 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#12507: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:20:14 PM

[up]Of course they only care about it to further propaganda.

To clarify my position here: if a list of businesses complicit in human rights violations is made, it should be a global list, covering any business complicit with any state or violating human rights on their own, not one exclusively focused on Israeli human rights violations because that will just be used by anti-semites for propaganda.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#12508: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:49:47 PM

[up][up]For the Neo-Nazis, the whole Muslim and immigrant issues are also the Jews doing to doom the White Race.

Including that whole thing of (((globalization))) erasing borders and making the undesirables be able to integrate is part of the whole Jewish agenda to reduce the power of the Pure White Men.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12509: Nov 28th 2017 at 3:54:24 PM

[up][up] We’ll never get a single global list, because no nation wants to put itself on such a list and no nation that could avoid being on such a list has the power or influence to write such a list.

What we can get is a global pissing contest, one group outs another group’s human rights violations and the retaliation is more disclosure. If we can get the ball rolling nations may crab bucket each other over human rights violations.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#12510: Nov 28th 2017 at 4:59:31 PM

What we can get is a global pissing contest, one group outs another group’s human rights violations and the retaliation is more disclosure. If we can get the ball rolling nations may crab bucket each other over human rights violations.
That's acceptable too. What I want is for the eventual list not to be just a list of jewish-owned business that do shady shit.

edited 28th Nov '17 5:00:19 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12511: Nov 28th 2017 at 5:09:58 PM

[up]Sounds like a virtuous cycle to me, so long as they keep it factual.

[down]You mean they had better admit them, yes?

edited 29th Nov '17 1:08:58 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#12512: Nov 28th 2017 at 6:21:54 PM

I’d be surprised if it’s only Jewish owned businesses in Israel that are up to shady shit, the UN list best not admit non-Jewish owned companies pulling shit in the West Bank.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#12513: Dec 5th 2017 at 12:59:25 AM

Looks like Trump's not going to sign the waiver to delay the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem...

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#12514: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:57:43 AM

[up] Who wants to bet that Trump just got too lazy to sign the waiver and come up with a speech? Sure he'll eventually spin it as keeping us in suspense or something, but still.

Disgusted, but not surprised
desdendelle (Avatar by Coffee) from Land of Milk and Honey (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: Writing a love letter
(Avatar by Coffee)
#12515: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:07:42 PM

[up][up] I won't believe it happens till it happens if I were you.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#12516: Dec 5th 2017 at 1:33:42 PM

It will "happen."

Now, whether anything actually happens when it "happens" is a different story, as has been the case before.

Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#12517: Dec 5th 2017 at 6:44:10 PM

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42246564

It's out there...

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#12518: Dec 5th 2017 at 6:53:13 PM

Trump tells Middle East leaders he will move US embassy to Jerusalem note 

President Donald Trump told Israeli and Arab leaders on Tuesday that he intends to move the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, a decision that breaks with decades of U.S. policy and risks fueling violence in the Middle East.

Senior U.S. officials said Trump on Wednesday is expected to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital while delaying relocating the embassy from Tel Aviv for another six months, though he plans to order his aides to immediately begin planning such a move.

U.S. endorsement of Israel's claim to all of Jerusalem as its capital would reverse long-standing U.S. policy that the city's status must be decided in negotiations with the Palestinians, who want East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state.

The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the entire city, home to sites holy to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian religions.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, Jordan's King Abdullah, Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi and Saudi Arabia's King Salman, who all received telephone calls from Trump, joined a mounting chorus of voices warning that unilateral U.S. steps on Jerusalem would derail a fledgling U.S.-led peace effort and unleash turmoil in the region.

The White House said that Trump had also spoken with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a longtime proponent of a U.S. embassy move to Jerusalem.

Netanyahu's office did not respond to a request for comment, but a senior Israeli minister welcomed Trump's decision while vowing that Israel would be prepared for any outbreak of violence.

White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders said that Trump, who promised during the presidential campaign to move the embassy in Israel, would give a speech on Wednesday about his Jerusalem decision.

"The president I would say is pretty solid in his thinking at this point," she said, declining to provide details.

Trump notified Abbas "of his intention to move the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem," Abbas spokesman Nabil Abu Rdainah said.

Abbas, in response, "warned of the dangerous consequences such a decision would have to the peace process and to the peace, security and stability of the region and of the world" and also appealed to the Pope and the leaders of Russia, France and Jordan to intervene.

The Jordanian monarch, whose dynasty is the custodian of the Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem, told Trump that moving the embassy would have "dangerous repercussions" for the region and would obstruct U.S. efforts to promote Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, according to a palace statement.

King Salman stressed to Trump that any U.S. announcement on the status of Jerusalem would "inflame Muslim feelings all over the world,” the Saudi Press Agency said.

None of the leaders' statements said whether Trump specified the timing of an embassy move, a notion supported by successive governments in Israel, a close U.S. ally.

But U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Trump was expected to sign a national security waiver - as have his predecessors - keeping the embassy in Tel Aviv for another six months but would commit to setting the move in motion. However, he was not planning to set a specific timetable, the officials said.

The Trump administration would need time to overcome logistical issues such as lack of a secure embassy building and staff housing in Jerusalem, according to one U.S. official.

Trump appears intent on satisfying the pro-Israel, right-wing base, including evangelical Christians, that helped him win the presidency but was disappointed when he delayed the embassy move in June.

No other country has its embassy in Jerusalem.

Israel captured Arab East Jerusalem in the 1967 Middle East war and later annexed it, an action not recognized internationally.

'A big mistake'

Israeli Intelligence Minister Israel Katz, who met last week with U.S. officials in Washington, told Israel's Army Radio: "My impression is that the president will recognize Jerusalem, the eternal capital of the Jewish people for 3,000 years, as the capital of the state of Israel.”

Asked whether Israel was preparing for a wave of violence if Trump recognizes Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, he said: "We are preparing for every option. Anything like that can always erupt. If Abu Mazen (Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas) will lead it in that direction then he will be making a big mistake.”

Islamist militant groups such as al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah have in the past tried to exploit Muslim sensitivities over Jerusalem to stoke anti-Israel and anti-U.S. sentiment.

Asked whether Trump recognized that his Jerusalem decision could spark violence, Sanders said: "A number of things have been looked at that have been weighed into the president's decision."

Senior U.S. officials told Reuters some officers in the State Department were also deeply concerned and the European Union, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia and the Arab League all warned that any such declaration would have repercussions across the region.

Turkey threatened on Tuesday to cut diplomatic ties with Israel if Trump recognizes Jerusalem.

Katz took to Twitter to reject Turkey's threat and reiterate Israel's position on the city, which is one of a long list of stumbling blocks in years of failed peace talks with the Palestinians.

A U.S. official said the consensus U.S. intelligence estimate on U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital was that it would risk triggering a backlash against Israel, and also potentially against U.S. interests in the Middle East.

It is also likely to upset an Israeli-Palestinian peace push led by Trump's son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner, in pursuit of what the U.S. president has called the "ultimate deal." The initiative has made little progress.

The White House said in a statement that in calls with Israeli and Arab leaders, Trump "reaffirmed his commitment to advancing Israeli-Palestinian peace talks" and "underscored the importance of bilateral cooperation with each partner."

Arab criticism of Trump's plan contrasted sharply with the praise Washington's traditional Arab allies heaped on him at the beginning of his administration. They saw Trump as re-engaging in the region after what they perceived as former President Barack Obama’s distancing of himself from them, as well as taking a tougher stand against Iran.

The European Union's top diplomat, Federica Mogherini, said on Tuesday that "any action that would undermine" peace efforts to create two separate states for the Israelis and the Palestinians "must absolutely be avoided."

U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres has “consistently warned against any unilateral action that would have the potential to undermine the two-state solution,” U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters in New York.

Well, our president (sorry) has made an impulsive move, aggravating well everyone it looks like. And his spokespeople can't even pretend that he thought it through.

Gaza handover delay sparks Palestinian unity deal doubts note 
Whoever called it...

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
bladeofdarkness Galaxy News Radio from israel Since: Jan, 2001
Galaxy News Radio
#12519: Dec 6th 2017 at 2:06:02 AM

Well, I won't lie. I would have prefered some less "controversial" U.S president had made the decision to finally recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital - but if it falls to Trump then so be it.

Mind you, It will probably lead to violence in the short term, but that's more or less a given, and it would have led to violence no matter WHEN it's finally done.

Better to finally yank off that band aid then spending another 50 years beating around the bush.

Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#12520: Dec 6th 2017 at 2:23:26 AM

[up] You should be worried. Our state department is in shambles. Our POTUS is an ignorant cruel moron. Even if it was possible to manage this transition without too much strife...this administration won't be able to pull it off.

A more savvy and diplomatic administration might have been able to do it. OTOH, a more savvy and diplomatic administration would probably have kept signing the waiver until some kind of peaceful arrangement was pulled off.

edited 6th Dec '17 2:24:41 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
bladeofdarkness Galaxy News Radio from israel Since: Jan, 2001
Galaxy News Radio
#12521: Dec 6th 2017 at 2:27:48 AM

'A more savvy and diplomatic administration might have been able to do it. OTOH, a more savvy and diplomatic administration would probably have kept signing the waiver until some kind of peaceful arrangement was pulled off.'

Which would not be likely to happen anyway.

Like I said - better to have a flawed decleration then no decleration.

Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#12522: Dec 6th 2017 at 4:08:23 AM

[up]Methinks you do not appreciate the sheer depth of this folly. Getting the time right would always be key.

And, there is only one way the timing could be worse: mid-openly-declared-war.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#12523: Dec 6th 2017 at 4:13:01 AM

Maybe tearing off the band-aid had to happen sooner or later. But it's generally a bad idea to do it when the wound is still bleeding.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#12524: Dec 6th 2017 at 4:15:41 AM

mid-openly-declared-war

Wait, did I miss an episode, here? I haven't heard of any fighting breaking out recently, just the daily grind of oppression.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#12525: Dec 6th 2017 at 4:17:12 AM

[up] No, nothing like that has happened yet. [up][up][up] was just pointing out that the timing of this declaration was so bad, that the only way it could be worse was if it happened during the outbreak of a war.

edited 6th Dec '17 4:17:22 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

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