Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
I mean, Desdendelle definitely has a point. Need I remind you all that some of the most common antisemitic myths are "Jews control [x business] and use their economic influence for nefarious plans"? making a UN sanctioned list of business related to jewish people that commit human rights abuses is practically giving Neo-Nazis a whole goldmine of propaganda.
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KVNeo-Nazis are obsessed with Muslims nowadays, among other immigrants. Jews are no longer the stereotypical transnational ethnic minority, so they have juicier targets.
Plus, since when do Nazis care about human rights, or even entertain the notion?
edited 28th Nov '17 2:34:03 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.I’d content that the Nazis were given the propaganda goldmine when a bunch of Israeli businesses decided to be complicit in human rights violations.
A list of such business certain is something the Nazis will use, and that’s probably part of why the list is being done, the motives behind this aren’t going to be benign.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran(Following links are all NSFW) Someone should have told Neo-nazis that, they haven't realized.
Like with freedom of speech, Gay rights and rape, they only pretend to care because it lets them attack a target of their bigotry.
UGH. Holy shit, turns out I was flat-out wrong. I'm genuinely surprised that this crap still exists. Why do they even bother?
And I assume they only care about the UN when it suits their purposes, too.
edited 28th Nov '17 3:08:22 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.Of course they only care about it to further propaganda.
To clarify my position here: if a list of businesses complicit in human rights violations is made, it should be a global list, covering any business complicit with any state or violating human rights on their own, not one exclusively focused on Israeli human rights violations because that will just be used by anti-semites for propaganda.
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KVFor the Neo-Nazis, the whole Muslim and immigrant issues are also the Jews doing to doom the White Race.
Including that whole thing of (((globalization))) erasing borders and making the undesirables be able to integrate is part of the whole Jewish agenda to reduce the power of the Pure White Men.
Inter arma enim silent legesWe’ll never get a single global list, because no nation wants to put itself on such a list and no nation that could avoid being on such a list has the power or influence to write such a list.
What we can get is a global pissing contest, one group outs another group’s human rights violations and the retaliation is more disclosure. If we can get the ball rolling nations may crab bucket each other over human rights violations.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyranedited 28th Nov '17 5:00:19 PM by IFwanderer
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KVSounds like a virtuous cycle to me, so long as they keep it factual.
You mean they had better admit them, yes?
edited 29th Nov '17 1:08:58 AM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.I’d be surprised if it’s only Jewish owned businesses in Israel that are up to shady shit, the UN list best not admit non-Jewish owned companies pulling shit in the West Bank.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ CyranLooks like Trump's not going to sign the waiver to delay the moving of the embassy to Jerusalem...
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"Who wants to bet that Trump just got too lazy to sign the waiver and come up with a speech? Sure he'll eventually spin it as keeping us in suspense or something, but still.
Disgusted, but not surprisedI won't believe it happens till it happens if I were you.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the groundIt will "happen."
Now, whether anything actually happens when it "happens" is a different story, as has been the case before.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42246564
It's out there...
"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"Trump tells Middle East leaders he will move US embassy to Jerusalem
note
Well, our president (sorry) has made an impulsive move, aggravating well everyone it looks like. And his spokespeople can't even pretend that he thought it through.
Gaza handover delay sparks Palestinian unity deal doubts
note
Whoever called it...
Well, I won't lie. I would have prefered some less "controversial" U.S president had made the decision to finally recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital - but if it falls to Trump then so be it.
Mind you, It will probably lead to violence in the short term, but that's more or less a given, and it would have led to violence no matter WHEN it's finally done.
Better to finally yank off that band aid then spending another 50 years beating around the bush.
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.You should be worried. Our state department is in shambles. Our POTUS is an ignorant cruel moron. Even if it was possible to manage this transition without too much strife...this administration won't be able to pull it off.
A more savvy and diplomatic administration might have been able to do it. OTOH, a more savvy and diplomatic administration would probably have kept signing the waiver until some kind of peaceful arrangement was pulled off.
edited 6th Dec '17 2:24:41 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised'A more savvy and diplomatic administration might have been able to do it. OTOH, a more savvy and diplomatic administration would probably have kept signing the waiver until some kind of peaceful arrangement was pulled off.'
Which would not be likely to happen anyway.
Like I said - better to have a flawed decleration then no decleration.
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.Methinks you do not appreciate the sheer depth of this folly. Getting the time right would always be key.
And, there is only one way the timing could be worse: mid-openly-declared-war.
Maybe tearing off the band-aid had to happen sooner or later. But it's generally a bad idea to do it when the wound is still bleeding.
Disgusted, but not surprisedWait, did I miss an episode, here? I haven't heard of any fighting breaking out recently, just the daily grind of oppression.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.No, nothing like that has happened yet. was just pointing out that the timing of this declaration was so bad, that the only way it could be worse was if it happened during the outbreak of a war.
edited 6th Dec '17 4:17:22 AM by M84
Disgusted, but not surprised
That would mean them doing their job for a reason other than antisemitism, the human rights council generally doesn’t do shit if it’s not for reasons of antisemitism.
I’m pretty sure some of the governments on the human rights council would only save a puppy from a burning building if they could blame Jews for starting the fire. But that doesn’t mean them saving the puppy is wrong, just that they’re doing it for all the wrong reasons.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran