Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
United Earth
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Seconding everything Marq said right there. I can't blame Desdenelle, it's not like he spends much time in the Arabic street, for obvious reasons.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Just for the record, though, I wouldn't be surprised to know that there are assholes among Arab and non-Arab Muslims who genuinely celebrate the Holocaust for one reason or the other. The world would be a lot better without such scum. Seriously, if God hated Jews so much that committing genocide upon them willy-nilly was a good thing, you'd think he'd have ordered us to do so; instead he tells us to not attack them unless they're the ones who attack first, and even then we're supposed to not be excessive and stick to the standard rules of humane treatment (e.g. no killing surrendering/unarmed enemies, no torturing anyone, no mistreatment of prisoners). But nooooo, all the morons care about is "JEWS ARE PIGS KILL EM ALL RRRAAAAGHHHH!" I bet none of them were actually victimized by a Jew in their entire life.
edited 19th Oct '16 5:54:07 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
United Earth
Well, few of them at any rate. But some seem to be under the impression that Palestinians are generally in this mindset. Which is inaccurate.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
Let's be fair, now. When the vast majority of the Palestinians have first-hand experience of heavy-handed oppression and discrimination by Israelis — both the government/military and the more actively extremist portion of the civilian populace — and it's not much of an exaggeration to say that most Palestinians either lost a relative/friend to Israeli violence (by the IDF or by violent citizens) or know someone who did, it's to be expected that the proportion of Palestinians who would approve of the Holocaust and similar great horrific tragedies that befell innocent Jews would be significantly higher than the average for the Arab/Muslim world. Oppression will inevitably breed hatred in surviving victims when it's allowed to persist long enough; and the worse the oppression is, the faster the hatred is bred.
How ironic that Tel Aviv claims its "national security measures" are all to eliminate the threat posed by Arab hatred of Israelis/Jews, when those same measures just serve to pour more oil on the fire of that hatred. It's a vicious cycle.
edited 19th Oct '16 8:28:56 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
(Avatar by Coffee)
It's a damned if you don't, maybe damned if you do sort of situation — letting the Pals commit terrorist acts and murder Israeli citizens means the government failed in its job. Can it be less asinine? Definitely. Can it stop using less-than-morally-stellar measures? Probably not.
United Earth
I don't think pushing for settlements (and heavily subsidizing them) (and making Mexico pay for ithaving them built by Palestinian labour!), or seizing control of all the water sources, or making Palestinians pay rent to the Israeli government on West Jordan, or the legal hoops Jeruslalem residents have to go through to keep their homes, or the extreme legal discrimination they go through whenever they are in contact with the judiciary, or...
The Israeli government does a lot of crap to Palestinians that has nothing to do with increasing security.
It even sometimes does crap to them at the direct expense of Israeli security. Like in the last Gaza bombardment, where bombing Hamas' police force was prioritized over striking the actual, current, and identified rocket launch sites.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
You mean the police force which is basically a part of their military wing?
United Earth
What are your sources on that, and why is it relevant in this particular instance?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
Regardless of if they're part of the military it still puts Israeli lives at risk to focus on targets that are not actively launching deadly weapons at Israeli civilians and in fact have no ability to harm Israeli targets of civilians or military nature.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Beside all those times when their casualties found their way into the military wing's martyr posters?
If they act as a military force, of course the IDF will treat them accordingly.
Because propaganda is always well researched... 
Anybody in the community can be held up as a martyr when killed serving it. Doesn't mean they were a militant. Emergency services, police, school teachers... Americans do it, Israelis do it... guess what: Palastinians do it.
If they aren't firing rockets at you, they shouldn't be a target. 'Cause way to create a martyr out of nothing. <_<
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Right, whatever. Because of course that's always true. If I had a cent for every time somebody was held up as an ANC or UNITA bomber...
edited 19th Oct '16 10:07:40 AM by Euodiachloris
They aren't simply "held up as a martyr". The military wing is outright saying that they were their men.
Edit: Yeah, and I'm sure that their pictures in uniform are all photoshoped too. And that's without mentioning the reports of police officers leading soldiers, because they come from the Shabak and thus obviously just propoganda.
edited 19th Oct '16 10:21:50 AM by Cag
Once upon a time, not that long ago, there was this political unit called "the Ciskei" (often erroneously twinned with "the Transkei"). To get anything done with paperwork and border movement, you needed connections within the Ciskei Defence Force, because of course you did (corruption, corruption). But, at the same time, nobody liked the Ciskei Defence Force because they were the bastards who came along and stomped on everything you held dear because the South African Defence Force saw ANC militants behind everything and their dogs. Which meant that to build back up after you'd just been stomped, you needed ties with the ANC because they were the guys on the ground handing out resources you needed to repair everything. So little boys generally got "damning" pictures taken, if you bothered to look for them. Many even joined the ANC on some level because it wasn't the Ciskei Defence Force who were the folkheroes.
Yet, most of those little boys and young men didn't go into South Africa and bomb stuff. They generally went there to work and send money back home... and catch HIV. But, if the police brought them in for anything and they didn't cough up the release money, they'd "accidentally fall down the stairs" or "was killed resisting arrest" and, suddenly, they'd become these hardened terrorists with years of fighting behind them: see these photographs!
Truth and Reconcilation showed time and again how both sides used these things in the propaganda war. When most of the poor sods were just trying to make ends meet or do things in the community using the only ties that worked. Heck, the ANC and others would use photographs taken at community events as blackmail to get people involved in capers because of who you were photographed with... from either side.
edited 19th Oct '16 10:55:08 AM by Euodiachloris
Because obviously, every place is completely the same.
This isn't South Africa, I'm afraid.
Yeah, I hear that a lot. And, yet, I see the apartheid and homeland isolation (and resource starving) for myself...
When it quacks like a duck, flies like a duck and swims like a duck... I'm going to expect it to waddle like a duck. I lived apartheid. I'm not alone in a large group of South African residents who did and call Israel out on acting suspiciously like the National Party governments of South Africa.
Suppress a population in rather familiar ways, and it will respond in predictable ways.
If it makes you feel better, of course I'm projecting. That's the same argument I was taught to respond with when I was accused of being a kaffir-killer (especially by Americans: Jim Crow, etc, etc — or Europeans: colonialisation, Bush Wars, concentration camps, Nazis, yadda, yadda). Go nuts. I fully understand how uncomfortable the comparison makes you feel. Been there. <hugs> I hope your wake-up call is less painful than mine was. In all sincerity.
edited 19th Oct '16 11:56:48 AM by Euodiachloris
That's projecting. You ignore the different context, history, motivations, and so on because you see something vaguely similar.
edited 19th Oct '16 11:35:29 AM by Cag
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
And you're bending over backwards to ignore any parallels yourself and try to pretend it's a one sided issue.
Oh really when?
No, I do not. I am well aware that we are far from perfect. I just don't act like the Palestinians are a bunch of kids with no agency of their own just because they happen to be the weaker side.
edited 19th Oct '16 11:46:48 AM by Cag
I never once said they were kids. But, like you, they've grown up from kids in a culture under stress.
Neither side is amoung the angels, here. But, one side holds most of the power and is horrifically abusing it. It can't end well unless it wakes up to the fact you can't win this game.
Because committing genocide is not "winning": it's being horrible, old school. -_-
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Israel is the one in control of the Palestinian territories, that means they are also Israel's responsibility.
Oh really when?
That's a horrible excuse. There are a lot of "kids who grew up in horrible circumstances" and didn't go the way the Palestinians did. And there are a lot of Palestinians who didn't grew up in these circumstances and still did the same. All the power in the world doesn't matter if the other side simply refuses to accept you.
OK. Expecting people to not react like people do when in bunches. Gotcha.
So, Jews forming various resistance and support groups of varying levels of violence... not a thing when being rounded up over centuries and shoved in ghettos?
edited 19th Oct '16 12:08:49 PM by Euodiachloris
Edit: Never mind. I think I'll stop here. We are only supposed to discuss recent news here, IIRC.
Now try to respond to something I've actually said, rather than something I didn't.
edited 19th Oct '16 1:30:55 PM by Cag
United Earth
You know what? You're right, Cag, Desdenelle. Israel are the ultimate victims. Despite that, they have sacrificed so much for the sake of others. They have been kind and merciful to the Palestinans. And yet, look how they respond to Israel allowing them to remain in Jewish land, in the Promised Land of the Chosen People! With vile, treacherous, cowardly violence, and nothing else! Why, the ungrateful, rioutous rabble, are they even capable of being civilized? Heck, they keep honour-killing each other like it's the middle ages! Truly, they deserve everything that's coming their way.
From now on, I'm going to to stop contradicting you guys in anyway. You say "X", I'll say "Yes! And...!"
edited 19th Oct '16 1:17:01 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Our major beef, however, is with Jews exploiting the Holocaust to achieve self-serving ends that often have little to nothing to do with the Holocaust itself. You know, the whole "Holocaust card" thing.
edited 19th Oct '16 3:24:08 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.