Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The law in the night
I am very averse with the ultra-orthodox being the ones doing it, though.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Yeah I'm not sure if the answer to the (perceived) issue of Arab population growth should be to breed masses of ones own religious extremists.
edited 22nd Sep '16 9:37:43 AM by Silasw
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
A case of fighting fire with canisters of natural gas...
V
As far as I am aware, the largely secular Israeli Political Establishment are no fans of the Haredim, who feel that they've got away with their religious privileges for too long.
It is also known that some Haredim have actually attacked IDF forces that were in the same part of town as them, and that some sects oppose the existence of Israel. In fact, (if I'm not mistaken) they're probably the largest source of domestic trouble in Israel right now.
edited 22nd Sep '16 10:17:26 AM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
(Avatar by Coffee)
Agreed with Superdark: fuck the Haredim sideways with a rusty cactus. As a group, anyway. As people they can be decent or not, same as everybody else.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Can't Israel vote to strip the Haredim of their protected status, make them serve in the military and do some damn work for a change?
Clearly they have too much time on their hands.
Beware the Crazy Man.
That was basically the platform of Yesh Atid. But the Haredim have protection from their own dedicated parties.
Wrong thread.
edited 22nd Sep '16 7:57:54 PM by 940131
(Avatar by Coffee)
@Ogodei: in theory yes, but the Haredi parties are basically in the kingmaker position in the Israeli political system, so it's nigh-impossible to do.
Unrelated to that: I've chanced upon this paper, which seems interesting and relevant to me. Its TL;DR, AFAICT, is "the demand that Israel dismantle the settlements and possibly pay repatriations to the Palestinians for the settlements' existence is unique, compared to other cases of belligerent occupation". What I, personally take from it is that it's also a discriminatory practice against Israel. Whether it's motivated by anti-Semitism or not is hard to tell, but it's definitely Bad.
I can see reperations perhaps being a special add on but dismantling of settlements can't be. Well it could be but only in a pro-Israel way that it's being asked to be done, normally the settlers would be forced out at the barrel of a gun as was done in many post-colonial states.
V
Or worse? By settlers, you also mean groups such as the Ugandan Asians?
Keep Rolling On
United Earth
The who?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
V
Indians who came to Uganda with The British Empire. Idi Amin expelled them in 1972.
Shameful Display
I think he was thinking of the Pied Noirs or the British expat community in Cairo. Though I understand the seller population in the West Bank are much more significant in terms of their percentage of Israel's population.
I Bring Doom,and a bit of gloom, but mostly gloom.
I was actually thinking of the French Algerians, who were forced to flee to France and then promptly treated like foreigners because while Algeria was legally part of France till independence the people in Metrapolitan France didn't see the French Algerians as 'real' French people.
But yeah the Ugandan Asians would also count.
edited 24th Sep '16 12:07:02 AM by Silasw
United Earth
"the people in Metrapolitan France didn't see the French Algerians as 'real' French people."
These raging xenophobic assholes truly deserved each other.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
It actually kind of strange. I remember reading somewhere that france citizenship laws were specifically designed to encourage people from french descent to identify themselves as french
edited 25th Sep '16 4:52:50 AM by nnokwoodeye1
Beware the Crazy Man.
What freaks me out a bit is that apart from the current holders of the presidency and prime ministership, there ain't many formers left. Just one former president and two former prime ministers....
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
V
Benjamin Netanyahu is 66.
United Earth
Young bastard.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Beware the Crazy Man.
All that tells me is that eventually he will be the only PM living, in power or not.
For some illogical reason, that concerns me. Can't quite put my finger on as to why.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
I can see why, elder statesman have influence and power even if they hold no offical position, that power can either serve as a check on others or serve to encourage exstream political viewpoints.
(Avatar by Coffee)
I caught the tail end of the live broadcast of Peres' funeral, and it looked to me like Bibi was crying. It was strangely moving.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Well that and they help the Israeli Jews maintain the demographic horse race with Palestinians and Israeli Arabs...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...