Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Plus, I got the feeling that the Muslim nations wouldn't be so keen on hereditary refugee status if they were the ones who had to compensate them.
(Avatar by Coffee)
The law in the night
Tasteless doesn't even describes Abbas speech, lucky him Brexit happened he was obfuscated.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Seeing as the Respect Party still has a base, suggesting that Brexit is a rejection of anti-Semitic hate speech is a massive Critical Research Failure.
What a speech. But could the audience have reacted in any other way? Demanding to know whether or not the Palestinian Authority is actually interested in the peace process after such a speech from its leader doesn't seem likely to go over well.
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
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They could have not given him a standing ovation? Or, gods forbid, even look uncomfortable?
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
Yeah, I'll believe the standing ovation part once we have another source for it than a tweet. It makes no sense to me.
And why would the Israeli poison Palestinian wells, when they own and control every single one, to the point that every Palestinian home has a rain collector and a tank on top.
While the resolution of the Palestinian question would remove one rhetoric weapon from the killers' arsenal, to say that it will end terrorism on all levels is self-centered to an unbelievably stupid level. Abbas and Netanyahu truly deserve each other.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
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I'm glad I didn't vote for this guynote and also ashamed we live in the same country.
edited 26th Jun '16 8:30:57 PM by desdendelle
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Shameful Display
Maybe it was a mistranslation or a metaphor gone wrong. Like "We will bury you", vs, "We will be their when you are buried"
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- We Arabs managed our relationship with Israel atrociously, but the worst of all is the ongoing situation of the Palestinians. Our worst mistake was in not accepting the United Nations partition plan of 1947.
- Perhaps one should not launch wars if one is not prepared for the results of possibly losing them.
- The Jews are not keeping the Arabs in camps, we are.
- Jordan integrated some refugees, but not all. We could have proven that we Arabs are a great and noble people, but instead we showed the world, as we continue to do, that our hatred towards each other and towards Jews is far greater than any concept of purported Arab solidarity.
Thus speaks yoneld:
Very enjoyable read, has a lot of great points.
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
A bill regulating reporting of NGO funding has been passed. Apparently it requires NGOs to give details of overseas donations if more than half their funding comes from foreign governments or bodies such as the European Union, yet does not have similar requirements for NGOs funded by overseas private individuals.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Abbas was incorrect about that rabbinical endorsement of well-poisonings, but the poisonings themselves weren't something he made up - they're a moderately popular tactic by Israeli settlers against West Bank Palestininan villages. Let's not get into Gaza's water situation, either, which has rather closer and more provable ties to Israeli government policy.
United Earth
@The "very interesting article": written for a Zionist Think Tank, regurgitating Israeli talking points in the mouth of an Arab. Next.
@Literally Poisoning the well: Way to make antisemitic myths come true.
edited 12th Jul '16 2:55:40 PM by TheHandle
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
The law in the night
It doesn't make it any less true though.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
So is that Israel Hayom paper the one that the Zionist Union is keen on getting banned?
A procrastination in of itself
Responses like this are how the Palestinians have ended up getting screwed over continuously. The Arab World has to recognise it's faults, limits and responsibilities.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
Sure, but on its own terms rather than from the mouth of a sellout. RT also has pet US citizens and europeans make pertinent-sounding critiques of the US and the West, and they may make a good point every now and then, but would you give them an ounce of credit, or the benefit of the doubt?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
If anyone in the Arab World was willing to make these reasonable points then sure, but right now it seems that all we've got are the "sellouts".
Sure RT has their pet Americans, but while their motives are highly questionable when they're right they're still right, even if they are assholes.
edited 12th Jul '16 7:14:46 PM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
United Earth
Don't put scare quotes around "sellout"; the man is literally paid by a Zionist think tank to provide material that goes towards their aims.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
A procrastination in of itself
Scare quotes are singular, I used double quotes because I was quoting you and am to tired to check your statement about the guy being a sellout.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
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Handle, the Arab world isn't willing to recognise its mistakes, so maybe someone else needs to do it for it.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
United Earth
The whole world is pointing out Israel's mistakes constantly, Israel's enemies most of all. Does that make people feel ashamed and contrite and wanting to fix things, or does it make them double down on their own sins even when, on some level, they know their deeds for what they are?
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Thus speaks yoneld:
@Ogodei: Not only ZU, but mainly them, yes. When the motion banning it came up, the opposition to it consisted almost entirely of Bibi's faction within Likud, as well as a few Jewish Home M Ks, and interestingly Meretz.
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
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It depends on the person; Israel isn't a single, monolithic entity. Also, you've ignored the group who thinks they're not doing any wrong.
United Earth
No, I haven't. My phrasing was precise.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.