Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
(Avatar by Coffee)
The joke's far, far older than that; it's been running in my family since the early 2000s.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Thus speaks yoneld:
It might go well with some Shtukhim...
◊
A nice butterfly
GOH DURN DEM ARABIC WERDS THIS IS A FAIR MERICAN FORUM AND WE SPEAK MERICAN HERE
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Daring him to annex is just laying the cards on the table. Either a two-state solution is viable or the government should just put up and annex, and deal with the consequences of their chosen method of annexation (whether it's the "one state solution" form or the "shove 'em across the Jordan/into the Sea" form)
Netanyahu has to know that his position is rhetorically incredibly weak. Unless there's actual support in Israel for maintaining the status quo exactly as it is. Is that the case? I thought everyone was either "two state solution eventually" or "that land is ours," and nobody advocating for perpetual occupation/terrorism/lawnmowing?
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The support he probably does get is from the hostile Muslim states. After all, what better way to keep Israel under constant siege?
edited 11th Feb '16 10:38:14 AM by TerminusEst
Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Thus speaks yoneld:
Generally, yes. However, Netanyahu is very good at demagoguery, which is what primarily helps him.
edited 11th Feb '16 10:59:37 AM by yoneld
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
I could see that. Cynicism is powerful, but cynicism as a response to opposition critics loses it's luster fairly quickly, especially if a problem grows in scale, as the Gaza problem especially is going to do.
United Earth
@carpets:as a Pungeon Master, I approve. Please, no carpet bombing.
@Bibi n'est qu'un Yahoo: Fuck that asshole and fuck his half-assed attrition and harassment policies.
I think he's firmly in the "this land is ours" camp, he just believes that the best way to get there, rather than a direct, honest, straightforward annexion, is a slow and gradual one through salami tactics. One deportation, one wall, one settlement, one stolen farmland, one water source, one little tiny dick move at a time.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
(Avatar by Coffee)
You're confusing him with, IDK, Elkin. No, Bibi is solely in the "I want to stay in power" camp.
Is it still a wafer thin majority in the Knesset? I'm surprised the coalition hasn't had more trouble.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Yep, we still have a 61-MK majority for the coalition.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Any drama or potential drama with coalition partners?
(Avatar by Coffee)
Nothing serious, just the usual "poo on you and in your hands too".
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
(Avatar by Coffee)
Looks like we aren't done yet.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
After that report about stabbing attempts being linked to suicidal young women in Palestine, i'm wondering if most of these stabbing attempts aren't a suicide-by-cop variant.
(Avatar by Coffee)
Some of them are, yes. Not all of them, though.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
V
How popular is Galtz, and what is radio like in general in Israel?
edited 14th Feb '16 12:59:58 PM by Greenmantle
Keep Rolling On
(Avatar by Coffee)
*Galatz. And, TBH, I've no idea — I don't listen to radio much.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
The dark Mage of the playground
Its quite popular.
More popular is Galgalatz which is essentially just music (as in pop music (as in the same limited playlist that gets on thy nerve.))
Its not propoganda as much as the governorment would like it to be, but it isnt that critical as much as id like it to be.
edited 14th Feb '16 2:32:18 PM by Superdark33
(Avatar by Coffee)
Ugh, Galgalatz. Worse station ever.
The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Thus speaks yoneld:
A procrastination in of itself
He's got more crazy then that, he actually implies that the kids carrying out attacks are doing so as part of some kind of grand self sacrifice for all Palestinians, instead of because their depressed and that's an easy way to commit suicide. Dear God is he actually stupid enough to think that kids committing suicide will help the Palestinian cause? Or is he just bullshitting because just like the Israeli government and Hamas he wants to maintain the current situation because he values his own position of power more then the lives of the people he supposedly represents?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
He probably isn't wrong. They have never in the last century shown any remorse for their treatment of the Palestinians. There's no reason to believe they'll ever stop abusing the Palestinians if there isn't some benefit for them in it.
The dark Mage of the playground
Palestinian officials, like israeli right wing officials, love corruption monies and petty nepotism profits.
(well, the israelies also love BIG nepotism profits but thats besides the point)
If the palestinians will suddenly switch mentalities to prefer nonviolent methods, theyd go after their officials, and worse- THEIR MONEY!
The original joke was made in a Likud campaign video for last year's elections.
edited 11th Feb '16 3:37:39 AM by yoneld
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.