Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I wasn't talking about the Arab World, whose word is apparently not worth sufficiently serious consideration by the Western world in practice. It's the Europeans, Americans, other members of the Western world, and Westernized non-Western countries that I was talking about.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
A procrastination in of itself
I'd note that western based human rights groups (like Amnesty International) have not been shy about calling Israel out on stuff and are pretty much immune to the effect of accusations of antisemitism, on account of it being freaking Amnesty International.
edited 22nd Sep '15 10:56:23 AM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
If by "calling Israel out" you mean spreading Palestinian propaganda even after it's proven wrong.
A procrastination in of itself
You got a source on Amnesty deliberately spreading information that has been proven false?
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
The law in the night
Errr, no.
If the Amnesty is guilty of something is of under reporting Hamas abuses in Gaza but making up evidence is not one of them.
Hamas however does that, like when they tried to blame one of their rocket misfires on Israel.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Just look at their Gaza Platform. There are multiple events where they claim that the people killed were civilians when it was already proven they were not. They seem to have taken their data from Palestinian groups without bothering to check it at all.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
What exactly counts as a mere "civilian" when it comes to Palestinians, though? Does merely possessing the common Kalashnikov rifle, donning a home-made balaclava, being willing to shoot at Israeli soldiers (and sometimes civilians, on the grounds that the overwhelming majority support IDF actions that lead to anti-Palestinian killings for "national security", and thus are complicit in those killings) and declaring sympathy or even outright loyalty to a particular militia group of the Palestinian armed resistence immediately takes the guy out of the "civilian" category and into the "militant" one?
edited 22nd Sep '15 12:04:26 PM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
A procrastination in of itself
So no source? Fair enough, guess I'll move on then.
Yes that would make someone a combatant. the distinction between a combatant and a civilian is actually in the Geneva Convention. Basically if you start shooting somebody else then you stop being a civilian, if you declare alliance to a military that is in active conflict with somebody else (so Hamas' military wing, though arguably not its civilian wing).
I believe that in this context civilian means non-combatant, so you can't be involved in combat or part of a military support structure that supports people who are in combat (so soldiers at the rear are still fair game).
edited 22nd Sep '15 12:06:28 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
The law in the night
IIRC Amnesty lists non combatants and combatants in their reports, so there is the benefit of doubt.
Inter arma enim silent leges
They claim that there were 1665 civilian casualties. Even the UN report only claimed 1462.
edited 22nd Sep '15 12:12:51 PM by Cag
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Oh dear, I guess that means Israel is spotless and Amnesty International is all part of the conspiracy to bring Israel down.
Oh really when?
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
And for the sarcasm-blind, Le Garcon is being sarcastic.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Nice straw man.
edited 22nd Sep '15 12:17:44 PM by Cag
A procrastination in of itself
X5 That's true, they may well list unknowns as non-combatants, which is different from how some groups works, I know that when it comes to drone strikes the US will list any adult male as a combatant unless proven otherwise. Though really an "unknown" figure would probably be the best way to do it.
The law in the night
War statistics vary a lot, but those 200 extra would hardly be considering overblown.
I don't hide that I am pro-Israel but I read the Amnesty International's report on Cast Lead and found it to be in check with the things that happened.
Including the shameful moment when the IDF used Hamas officials relatives as human shields.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Except that some of these 200 are known militants. They still refuse to correct even those.
A nice butterfly
Sometimes we need levity in this here thread because it is such a volatile subject.
President Luis Guillermo Solís, of Costa Rica offered to be an intermediator for the arab-israeli conflict, or at least offered to chat with both of them.
This is the time for both sides to stop, laugh, pat him on the head, have some fun, and send him back home because god dammit you spend enough time outside your country. GET BACK IN HERE AND DO SOMETHING.
It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Thus speaks yoneld:
I think I prefer Poland's solution.
Beware the Crazy Man.
<snicker>
Stay awesome, Polandball. Stay awesome.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Galaxy News Radio
for a Poké Ball, it has some good ideas. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
... Would you believe me if I said that I never noticed Polandball's resemblance to a Poké Ball (or the two Pokémon that resemble the item closely enough to be regularly mistaken for it in-universe) until you pointed it out?
Now back to your regular daily feed of on-topic discussion.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
The law in the night
We all know that Polandball is an Electrode pokemon
◊
Another mess in the Temple Mount
Inter arma enim silent leges
It seems like Abbas has declared that the Palestinian Authority is withdrawing from the Oslo Accord.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I just checked. He's saying that since Israel keeps violating the accords as it pleases (and the world doesn't do anything about it besides telling the Israelis to "exercise self-restraint" every single time), the Palestinians are under no obligation to keep their end of the accords.
About goddamn time.
edited 30th Sep '15 11:43:45 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Is fear of that a big thing in the Arab World? The Israeli goverment cries "antisemitism" so often these days that I think it's starting to be tuned out, especially when it comes to organisations that are otherwise very respectable and which there is no actual evidence against.
edited 22nd Sep '15 9:17:50 AM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran