Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Bennett's support for the pride parade is ideological as well as practical. He differs from the Orthodox fanatics in that he's a racial rather than religious Jewish-supremacist, so he's less upset about gay people breaking the tenets of the Torah and more upset about ethnic Jews trying to kill other ethnic Jews (rather than, say, Arabs).
The hefty anti-Zionist presence in the Orthodox community can't help their case in his eyes, either.
edited 31st Jul '15 1:44:05 PM by Iaculus
What's precedent ever done for us?
Thus speaks yoneld:
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
There is, of course, a chance that if JH leaves, they'll be replaced with ZU. There's been talk about that the past few weeks.
edited 31st Jul '15 3:36:03 PM by yoneld
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
Wouldn't new elections benefit ZU more than a Grand Coalition?
Thus speaks yoneld:
Depends. Yesh Atid and Kulanu would probably benefit from new elections, but it is unclear on whose expense.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Yesh Atid and Kulanu would benefit just by pooling resources like ZU did...
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Thus speaks yoneld:
I mean in terms of the results. If YA and Kulanu gain seats, it would be at the expense of another party.
Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.
Beware the Crazy Man.
I imagine YB.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Thus speaks yoneld:
Probably, but also Likud and possibly ZU.
One of the parade victims has passed away.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33752111
So, do Israeli courts usually put repeat violent offenders away for life? I mean this guy basically repeated his crime the moment he got out, he clearly can't be rehabilitated and needs to be locked up for good, but will the courts do it?
Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Don't see why not....
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
A procrastination in of itself
Seeing as the guy is now guilty of murder on top of his previous conviction of multiple assaults with a deadly weapon I'd say he's going away for life, and that's without factoring in the fact that they could probably throw in an attempted murder for each of the other stabbing victims.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
Israel has jailed a suspected Jewish militant without trial.
And this, Israelis, is why it's a good idea to protest the use of these kind of things on the Palestinian side when they first get put in place: somebody is likely to point out how it can be used on everybody down the line. -_-
Tada! <sighs> Apartheid/ separate-but-equal/ emergency measures/ whatever is never just a one way street. :/
edited 5th Aug '15 4:17:32 AM by Euodiachloris
A procrastination in of itself
Yeah detention without trial and possible tourture and not good, regardless of the target.
Hopefully people will say something, they might not have when they came for the Palestinians but now that they're coming for Isralis...
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
The law in the night
If it doesn't paint Israel in a bad light it isn't news at all it seems.
edited 5th Aug '15 4:29:53 AM by AngelusNox
Inter arma enim silent leges
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
At least they report on Bibi's reaction to the Iranian deal, the Malaysian media (and most people here) don't care about what goes on unless a Palestinian dies for whatever reason.
Galaxy News Radio
you make it sound like its a bad thing.
the guy's a terrorist. who gives a shit about what his religion is ?
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
A procrastination in of itself
I think it's not that so much as detention without trial and potential torture are bad things and the increasing use of them (regardless of how "deserving" the current target might be) is a very bad thing.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Did you check out the US Senate torture report?
'They're terrorists, who cares what happens to them?' was used to justify a sadistic and wasteful clampdown on civil liberties that created more terrorists than it disposed of.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Galaxy News Radio
the guys responsible for these measures have forgotten more about terrorism prevention then you and i will ever know.
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
besides, detainment for this length can only be done with the approval of the supreme court - if it was allowed, they must have found it to be justified under the circumstances.
like i said, we have a court system that oversees this sort of thing. this ain't Gitmo.
edited 5th Aug '15 10:38:34 AM by bladeofdarkness
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
The current justice minister is Ayelet Shaked, who's been explicitly platforming on reducing the power of the judiciary (and especially the Supreme Court) to make it more subordinate to the Knesset. You'll forgive me if I'm not 100% reassured here.
Galaxy News Radio
Mostly because in the recent decades the court systems (especially the supreme court) have tended to exert far wider "interpretation" of the law then they realistically should have (given that no one elected them).
so a reduction of the judiciary's autonomy IS a positive step overall, so long as its not TOO severe.
after all, the three branchs of government are suppose to check and balance each other, not act like they can do whatever they like.
Bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts.
Beware the Crazy Man.
Having a written constitution would help better in that regard...
Galaxy News Radio
you work with what you've got. 
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
I hope you are right.
Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...