Global terrorism thread

Russians and Americans want to declare a win so they can take credit and go home already. The Kurds want to make damn sure the man is dead.

edited 18th Jul '17 8:15:08 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

https://ph.news.yahoo.com/duterte-bodyguards-wounded-philippine-ambush-army-031555576.html

Looks like the CPP NPA is making another doo doo on Duterte's convoy in Davao after he said martial law is needed 'til the end of the year.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"

About the whole "you reap what you sow" thing — that's true. And, making sure that the children of Daesh widows grow up hating your guts for isolating them and their mother-and-aunties for what their father did instead of trying to help them turn their lives around is a great way to teach them to fight you for forever and a day.

The kids aren't responsible for the mistakes of their parents (and, even the widow might not be responsible for a lot of the crap her darling husband's decisions have heaped on her): don't make them the next wave of Daesh.

Ask Israelis and Palestinians how well penning them up and ignoring them by not letting them become functioning parts of any particular country goes.

edited 20th Jul '17 4:24:21 AM by Euodiachloris

That's before we consider that some people joined ISIS because they had legitimate grievances against the Iraqi government, they were wrong to join ISIS to try and solve said grievances, but that doesn't change the fact that said legitimate grievances exist.

Last time we decided to collectively punish everyone who worked for the system of a genocidal nutjob in Iraq we created ISIS, can we please do repeate the exact same mistake? Thee are so many new ones we haven't tried yet.

edited 19th Jul '17 7:42:15 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

... You two are conveniently oversimplifying what I had said.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

Also, sadly, the relatives of those killed by Daesh fighters are unlikely to welcome their families.

edited 19th Jul '17 6:28:00 PM by DeMarquis

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

"The kids aren't responsible for the mistakes of their parents"

(Full debate here)

Marq does have a point, though. In a certain type of shame-based society, public disgrace can be as good as a death sentence, and not rising up to certain offenses with violence can be a disgrace unto itself. There can be a duty to avenge.

For instance, the colonial English in Afghanistan notoriously failed to judge the locals' commitment to Honor Before Reason, for a certain value of honor, and paid for it. Bit of a Varys vs. Dothraki situation there.

But XX Ist century Iraq and Levant are not XI Xth century Afghanistan. Mercy is always worth a try when you hold all the power.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Not when mercy carries a huge risk of being misplaced. Not when mercy leaves innocent people at high risk of being targeted by the ones the mercy was naively offered to. Not when there's a high chance that the people you're offering mercy to may be far too gone for you to rehabilitate, that they would simply react violently at any such attempts or be more devious and feign cooperation until they can get a hold of a weapon and have an innocent hostage within reach.

Many of the women not only joined Daesh willingly, but actively assisted them even after seeing what Daesh is like from the inside. Unless it's already evident that they were victimized plenty by Daesh (e.g. extensive signs of physical abuse), the Daeshites' relatives are as much security risks as a Daeshite militant is until proven otherwise.

edited 20th Jul '17 4:01:54 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

You mean they will not fall to their knees in gratitude and relief that their lives, which they thought were done for, have been spared by the merciful and magnanimous godsguys who can gaze at your puny form from Heaven and thence rain Hellfire(TM) upon you, among other ordnance?

Bit of an Iron Chariots (Judges 1:19) situation here, I think, except these heretics' prayers are nigh-universally thought to be illegitimate anyways.

So basically what you're saying is, these are fanatics who don't Know When to Fold Them, and we should deal with them under that assumption and not give them the benefit of the doubt. They are guilty of harboring murderous plots until proven otherwise.

edited 20th Jul '17 4:15:46 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

I grew up with vendetta cycle stories where, eventually, either somebody saw sense and applied mercy to stop the whole tragedy from continuing for the next hundred years (generally through a double-wedding and actually being nice to the brides' kin — and the brides not waiting 15 years to exact "honourable" revenge upon their husbands' kin, either)... Or everybody died because the amaZulu used everybody's revenge plots against them and destroyed what had been.

The best way to raise little Shakas is to isolate and rain shame upon their mothers for the sins of the fathers. (Nandi hadn't passed her woman's tests when she got preggers... Which means Jama committed the equivalent of statutory rape and everyone pretty much blamed her for it when her pregnancy started showing — in short, High Law got broken into pieces with the support of the all the advisors and law keepers as they sat twiddling their thumbs when they should have seen to it that Jama got tied to the back of a crocodile for what he did, High Chief or not.)

Collective responsibility also comes with the collective responsibility of those left behind to try to stop the whole thing blowing up again. Blind vengeance against those with only small parts isn't justice. It's just Revenge having ransacked Justice's wardrobe.

edited 20th Jul '17 7:47:23 AM by Euodiachloris

"tied to the back of a crocodile"

Cool and Unusual Punishment, that is!

"Blind vengeance against those with only small parts isn't justice. It's just Revenge having ransacked Justice's wardrobe."

That's right! Don't waste the "good wine" on women and children!

edited 20th Jul '17 4:53:00 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Yes, but how do we convince the relatives of those killed by the Daesh fighters? Bear in mind that this situation is under the direct control of thr Iraqi gov. What can the outside world do, beyond pleas for reconciliation?

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

Exactly, not to mention that it's easy to talk about forgiveness and reconciliation when we haven't been personally affected. I'm not suggesting such talk is wrong per-se but I could easily imagine actual victims of ISIS finding it repugnant.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

I think that women who joined ISIS should be treated the same as captured/surrendered ISIS fighters.

But that brings us to what I actually think may be the split here, what do we do with ISIS grunts (be they male fighters or women who joined willingly) once this conflict is done? Do we lock them all up? Carry out mass executions? Let victims of ISIS atrocities decide? Let them be free not shame and shun them? Commit to forgiveness and reconciliation that brings the country back together and accepts that the Iraqi government has some responsibility for driving people towards ISIS?

edited 20th Jul '17 2:29:19 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

I suppose so. I presume the only female ISIS members are the wives? Because if so then I agree, they should be treated with the assumption that they were coerced either explicitly or implicitly.

In my opinion it should be done in a case by case basis, those who can rehabilitated should be. While those who are the hardcore supporters should be imprisoned or executed, whichever is easier.

edited 20th Jul '17 2:31:14 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Committing to reconciliation is easy when you sit five hours' flight away from the atrocities, Silas, just like it's easy to tell people what to do when it's not your citizens who are getting shelled. I figure that Daeshites who committed crimes ought to be punished (though I'm against the death penalty; it doesn't make sense from a punishment or rehab PoV).

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

I disagree on the execution part, the purpose of execution is to remove individuals who are exceedingly dangerous to society. Now you may or may not find that rationale palatable but I think it easily fits those ISIS members that cannot be rehabilitated or have committed egregious atrocities.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

No, but it's economical if your humaneness standards are low and you don't want the hassle of a prison system. If you're sufficiently out of fucks to give, use an air bubble pistol (hammer's too slow) and then mulch the bodies.

That. The point is not to teach, deter, or rehabilitate. The point is to cause Cessation of Existence.

edited 20th Jul '17 2:44:06 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

X3 You're not wrong, but it's also easy to commit to continuing a giant blood feud for generations to come when you're not going to have to fight in the next war that's caused by said blood feud.

Considering the security of Iraqi prisons there remains a strong argument in favour of the death penalty, that said people are captured now but may not be kept captured for long.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Exactly.

Another good point, if their prisons are not secure (and the rise of ISIS shows they're not) then imprisoning ISIS members may not be an option.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

Well, if you're looking for what's practical, then yes, shooting them is practical (and since it's Iraq who's going to be doing it, nobody's gonna give a fuck except the usual barking dogs). It's kinda not moral according to accepted Western standards, though.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

Is it really practical though, if it only fuels the next Sunni insurgency?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

There's no practical way to stop the next insurgency in the Middle East. Not without committing an amount of money and manhours nobody in the West wants to.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground

With Iraq in particular, partition might be the best solution. Kurds break off, Shia run a rump!Iraq in the South, not sure where the Sunnis in Anbar go....

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

There is no objective centralized Western moral standard. Capital Punishment is in the US and has existed in Europe in the past. So I would argue that applying Capital Punishment to those that are a clear threat to society is completely moral.

I am not arguing for executing every member of ISIS, there should be an attempt to rehabilitate them (especially because I doubt ISIS is a pure volunteer force). But some of them simply are lost causes and in my view they should be treated as such.

Which would encourage mass ethnic cleaning by various sectarian groups to expand the land that would go to their nations.

edited 20th Jul '17 3:21:35 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn