Turkish Politics

I'm hearing there's strong accusations of fraud and that the opposition isn't recognizing the results.

Well, it is official...63,2 percent yes in Germany with a participation of 50%.

So what am I supposed to say in the future when people claim that the majority of Turks have no understanding for the German ideals? The Turks just proved them right. Maybe they could have prevented this from happening, maybe not, but they didn't even try. They spat on everything Germany is standing for. And 75% of the yes votes came from the ballot in the Ruhr Area. How am I supposed to not feel anger the next time I encounter a group of Turks on the street, knowing that out of a group of eight people, three voted for Erdogan and four didn't care enough to do something? I mean, I shouldn't be surprised considering how the Turkish representatives have acted in the last years, but it still hurts. And I freely admit, but gut instinct is that I want those people out of my country. I mean, I can't get rid of the German crazies, they are our problem, but the only Turks I want to see immigrating to Germany in the near future are the poor sods who flee from Erdogan. The other should stay away. Also, so far I was undecided on the double citizenship question...this was the last straw, I am now firmly against it!!!!

Oh, and Erdogan told his followers that his win would be a hit towards Germany and other European countries...for the record, it is above all a hit against Turkey itself..

Edit: I feel a mixture of sadness and disgust.

edited 16th Apr '17 2:16:34 PM by Swanpride

Hardly surprising. Immigrant communities are often more conservative than the people who stay in their home country.

Apparently the vote count will be challenged by the opposition, with "Yes" having 51,3%.

I'd put less blame on those who did not vote. For example one school friend of mine told me that he would not be voting, because he felt that he had no right to make such a decision (for reference, he was born in Germany, his parents came to the country 40 years ago and he only speaks a few words un Turkish). While I'd prefer that he had voted, I can see where he is coming from.

It is surprising...we have a really good education system, with a heavy emphasis on how Hitler even managed to get to power into first place. I can't believe that anyone who want through that kind of school doesn't see the parallels to Erdogan. And honestly, I am sick to know that the next days I will read a number of articles how Germany "failed" the Turkish immigrants, because I feel that they failed Germany.

True...if that was the reasoning behind it. I fear that a lot of people simply didn't care enough.

edited 16th Apr '17 2:26:34 PM by Swanpride

Ultimately, the Turkish are the ones who are going to suffer the most. Giving more power to people like Erdogan...it never goes well.

And once again: fuck populism.

edited 16th Apr '17 2:37:54 PM by M84

Well, the native ones.

I wouldn't bet on it. The more the Erdogan followers feel emboldened, the more trouble they make in Germany. The more trouble they make, the more their behaviour reflects back on the Turks in particular and on Muslim immigrants in general. If the Af D needed another argument why we should shut down the borders, they now got it.

How about before you decide to consider all Turks you see to be Erdogan fanboys until proven otherwise you consider a few things:

• Not all Turks you might see can vote in Turkey (its only about 1,5m, of which 50% voted and of those 63% voted for Erdogan) and others may be what is generally called German Citizens of Turkish descent. Assuming that just because they look Turkish they must be complicit in this 'failure' is sort of racist?
• As of the current polls the Af D is still clocking in at 7% for the Bundestagswahl, at 61m people being able to vote that's over 4 million people. And since you are an avid follower of Red Scare consider how much that is if you count voters of the Left. So maybe try not to sound so condescending about how they failed Germany. We're failing ourselves pretty much still, given that for every Turk in Germany who voted for Erdogan in this we have nigh 10 German Citizens who'd vote for the party of Björn Fucking Höcke.

So if someone tries to claim 'The Turks' don't integrate, maybe try to remind him that no group of people is a monolith and is always a mass of individuals and any attempt to have discourse that treats them as one big hive mind - 'them' as opposed to 'us' - is just why maybe integration is going as slow as it does. Because that's just salon-allowed xenophobia. And in that, yes, we still fail them. Because there's failure everywhere here. So own up to that instead of 'feeling sick' about how this 'makes Germany look bad'.

And please, the Af D would use Frauke Petry getting a cough as a reason why we need to close borders. They are a populist party, since when have those needed hard facts for their demands.

Edit: and for the record keeping alone, the split yes/no in Germany seems to be the trend in France and Netherlands too.

edited 16th Apr '17 2:48:44 PM by 3of4

This is not about them making Germany look bad, it is about that German culture is very diverse, but there is one thing which stands above everything else. Basically two words: Never again!!!! If people who grew up in Germany don't understand this, what hope is there for the future?

But you sounds like it does to you. You literally wrote about feeling sick that Germany is getting blame for it. And again, 4+ million Germans who'd vote for a Party who wants to 'change the culture of remembrance' on the thing why 'Never Again' is so important.

Its all the more reason to keep harder and teach beyond 'this is bad'. This is not a thing you can pose on a Aircraft Carrier and declare 'Mission Accomplished'.

edited 16th Apr '17 2:56:14 PM by 3of4

At least the Turks in Switzerland voted yes by "only" 38%.

Why do so many people the world over fall for authoritarians? Time and time again, they learn nothing. I hate how stupid and plain evil humanity is.

It's not authoritarianism that's the problem. It's populism and the personality cults they tend to foster. It's especially bad since this transcends the traditional left-right political spectrum.

It's not so much that humans are stupid and evil. It's that we're for the most part creatures of emotion. Emotional appeals work very well on us. That's the main tool a lot of populists employ to win support.

edited 16th Apr '17 7:43:03 PM by M84

Personality cults are a form of authoritarianism. They rest on the desire to suck up to a charismatic authority who can take care of you. These fucking morons are essentially still children. Scared and looking for a substitute parent. And the power hungry excuses for human beings are all too eager to give it to them.

Personality cults can exist in Democracies, just look at Trump or any other Populist leader for that matter. But yes they are attractive to the more pathetic parts of Humanity.

edited 16th Apr '17 7:45:33 PM by Fourthspartan56

Them existing in democracies doesn't mean they're not auhtoritarian in nature. Authoritarian personality types who love domination and hierarchies live everywhere, after all.

Hmm, touche.

@3of4 If only 10% of our Turkish immigrants had voted for Erdogan, I wouldn't feel so angry.

The "Yes" vote has won by 51,4%. I get the feeling that the furor is just about to begin...

edited 17th Apr '17 1:08:43 AM by TerminusEst

It only won by that much? How unfortunate for Erdogan — if it had been higher he'd have a clearer mandate.

edited 17th Apr '17 1:10:55 AM by M84

The reason so many people fall for authoritarian people is simple: A lot of people have no sense of consequences. When they happen, they just go never my fault.

And cynically, it took a major world war to disabuse people of the notion that Nazism is good. Perhaps some of these people will only change their minds at gunpoint. Or if you thoroughly destroy their existence, their life and the like. Which has obvious practicality and ethics issues.

You're looking at a sample size of the people who actually voted (that is, Turks who feel an appreciable connection to Turkey, still), and we've already established that migrant communities skew more conservative than the communities they're a part of (a fascinating subject I can provide material on), so the number of people voting for Erdogan makes sense. It's basically statistical ballot stuffing.

I'd be more interested in seeing the voter percentage overall.

Even that didn't really kill Nazism, or the Internet wouldn't be full of Clean Wehrmacht apologia. It killed that particular string of authoritarian genocidal dictatorship, but Spain remained a fascist dictatorship until 1975.

edited 17th Apr '17 1:17:55 AM by math792d

*cough* Richard Spencer *cough*

Anyway, I wonder how long it will take for Erdogan to run Turkey into the ground now that he has even fewer checks on his power. I rather doubt he'll actually do a better job.

I wonder if we can vote to kick him out of NATO before he invades Cyprus.

You don't have Nazism being a major political force anymore, so yes it did work. There is a difference between adulation by small groups on GIFT-net and being a major political force.