Shin Megami Tensei IV *SPOILERS ABOUND*

It actually is pretty close to what Dagda is trying to say actually, and indeed Dagda does tend to be quiet when characters are having moments of revelation/development.

It's just when friendship starts being used to justify being idiots or being irrational that he speaks up and goes "Friends? Disgusting!"

I mean that would be a point against the writing if anything.

x2 She literally acts like she never got close to or befriended Flynn. Heck outside his fellow Samurai Nozomi is the person he most consistently was involved with alongside Akira. Her trying to do everything herself in the Fairy Forest quest at the beginning when she already knows she doesn't have the power to handle anything by herself, and it was Napaea that had to get someone to help her beat a Jack Frost with a little bit of power.

Nozomi also had her own frustrations with her fellow Hunters because they always expected her to help them, but never were there when she needed them. Even ingame for IV the number of hunters you meet that know her were two, and she was never suggested to be important enough to be a member of Cafe Florida. Heck the fact that Nanashi dealt with King Frost after she got the Dionysus wine to drink that makes women stronger and Danus power means there's no way she was ever competent enough to be that important, even she had problems with the fact that she was not competent in IV. Heck she looked up to and respected Flynn who I might add is younger than her in IV yet she somehow fits a big sister role? Even her performing a sneak attack near the end isn't something she'd do and it was something he Wicker Hordes did to her. She viewed it as cowardly, and it didn't help her self esteem issues either.

edited 26th Jun '17 1:18:15 AM by OmegaRadiance

*couch*

Yes you are correct in that it was close to what Dagda was trying to say, that's why I wrote that (partly just cause of me trying to stay sane with this mess). However, now think about how the game contextualizes and portrays it. The game goes out of it's way to portray it as invalid, or even downright ludicrous at times.

Compounding this is the fact is that it is just one of many cases where Show, Don't Tell conflict with the telling, making it clear that this interpretation of Dagda was not intended by the writer, signals he clearly wasn't aware he was sending. And this becomes especially true with many of the choices you have to make in order to lean towards his route, being as big of a jerk or even villain as you can, not understanding or respecting while independent.

And the funny thing is, this could have been fixed in such a laughably easy fashion, all it would have need would have been one human character that had similar ideologies as him and show support for the route, even if the character wasn't necessarily an ally of Dagda's. The Maruo quest-line does really come to mind. It could have shown some support for the path but instead had it represented by Mara, a demon of temptations. But as I have previously stated many times, the game does not want Dagda to be right.

edited 26th Jun '17 1:42:57 AM by matteste

One little girl NPC does question whether people really need to rely on others so bad, especially when folks started getting creepy with the Flynn obsession.

Mido used to be human too. I think I mean the Minister is clearly human in the older games and he's perfectly fine with Dagdas ideals.

The Maruo quest line was more of a perversion of what Dagda seeks as well, because demons. Demons that Dagda also points out and will continue messing with humans to mess things up.

edited 26th Jun '17 1:55:55 AM by OmegaRadiance

Wow, a little girl NPC that you might never see sides with Dagda's ideals, woohoo *clap, clap*

In all seriousness though, what kinda value does that have in a story dead set to say the opposite, and not only that, but her argument loses it's value quickly. For all we know, one guy could have put her in and then called it a day. Tell me of one instance or character in the entire game that not only have support for his ideals, but that stays valid and treated as such and that is treated as honest and truthful, not coming out of the mouth of the manipulative.

And Mido? Sorry but that's reaching.

And the Maruo quest-line being a perversion? You missed the point, it actually showed a supportive type with positive traits of following your ideals. He even had followers and tried to teach them to do the same. But then the game went out of it's way to devalue it by bringing forth Mara, and then showing that Maruo was better of doing things for others and that that was the true way of life. And that's before getting into the rather disturbing subtext.

edited 26th Jun '17 2:15:23 AM by matteste

I don't get why you're being sarcastic. IV and to a way lesser extent IVA always had talking to NPC to learn many things and opinions of IV's backstory, world, and the people. The Flynn obsession in IVA ruined a lot of that in IVA though.

Mido laughs with joy when you chose Dagdas path. The same laugh he used in the previous game if Flynn asked him who he is I might add. He is thrilled with Nanashi taking that path.

Satan himself actually sees nothing wrong with Dagdas goals, indeed the one thing that did creep him out(Nanashi having no grand or insidious desire to usurp the Creator) is stated by Dagda to be proof of how a human can be a better Creator than YHVH, which Satan quickly agreed with. Satan never saw replacing YHVH as bad. And Satan is the least bias character in the game.

There wasn't anything positive in Maruos ideals. Only that people can "be themselves" by supporting him. He himself quickly gives up in the fight from sheer laziness in the first quest and had to lie to his followers so they wouldn't get mad. Hell the fact he knows ailment spells, which non-MC humans don't use in combat in IV or IVA and Nozomi didn't use till Danu is a sign he's possessed to begin with.

edited 26th Jun '17 2:31:34 AM by OmegaRadiance

The main reason for me being sarcastic is due to the difference in narrative approach the games uses. Had this used the same narrative approach the the original IV used then I wouldn't have batted an eye on that comment, or maybe even agreed with it. That would have fit with how it told it's story. But IVA doesn't do that now does it. It tells it by boundless in your face narration, much of which is kinda pointless at that. The side tidbits turn kinda pointless, especially if it is that important for a character, to have value. Basically a tacked on extra. A needle in a haystack, a needle that is necessary for the narrative to be balanced yet absent from where it is most important. If it truly had meaning then it would be presented upfront just like everything else, instead of being hidden away in the background like if the author is saying "Here, see. I didn't forget the other side."

I'll give you the thing with Satan, cause you are absolutely right there. Aside from Dagda he turns into one of your most stalwart supporters. In fact, he is the only character in the game I would actually call truly Neutral. Perhaps the only character in the game that truly falls into a gray morality. Shame it takes place after the alignment lock where it is expected.

The thing with Maruo, I wasn't finished with that bit due to being in a hurry, so I'll give you the rest here. What I meant to expand upon was that he continues to devalue the individuality option by being portrayed as a troublemaker and a coward as well as being weak despite the inspiring things he says, thus making the message come as hollow. Again, a direct intent to make Dagda weaker in the argument. But it also has the unfortunate side effect of sending the message that anyone who teaches people to be themselves are in reality either cowards or tempters that should be dealt with, and you can only be happy by doing things for others.

But perhaps the games biggest failure when it comes to Dagda and his ideals is that the game and characters doesn't treat him seriously. If he isn't being treated seriously by the game, why should we? This is another thing that could have been so easily fixed. Maybe during one of his rants, they could have shown that characters actually where affected by the things he says, and start questioning that maybe he is right. But no, nothing of the sort happens and the friendship argument remains unchallenged and flawless.

edited 26th Jun '17 3:26:36 AM by matteste

Fought Odin again (but in the hopeless boss fight.)

He used his scripted attack where he uses Concentrate, Will Of Thunder, and Thunder Reign all at once; but I'm on NG+

my reaction when it takes off barely 20% of our health

@Matteste: because he's not teaching them to depend on themselves for it, because he wants them to depend on him and let go because someone accepts them no matter what. Maruos group is mostly made of weak willed people like himself who give in easily to temptation. Which should be obvious when it's made of mostly former Gaeans (Who are known hypocrites) and the Ashura-Kai, And as shown with the girl in the first and last quest, he did end up giving that one girl to start having faith in herself because he believed in her. So he did manage to lead one person to believe in herself. The problem, which Dagda has pointed out before, is that most people in general don't have the willpower to stand on their own and gather into groups. The ones who mostly twist this belief are the Yuriko faction who spout about personal strength having merit are just weak cowards gathered together to compensate for being weaklings.

I have to admit, I like Maruo and the quest line he's involved in. I like how the "Be Yourself" message is shown to be both harmful and helpful depending on how the message is delivered. Mara, unsurprisingly, corrupts the message. However, it was also nice to see that Maruo at least improved someone's life by encouraging her to have faith in herself and whatnot.

Also, I hope Chironnupu appears in a future game. He's so adorable, I love him.

That's the point I tried to say. Again to devalue the indendancy idea. And the thing with the woman staying, it was not due to his grand speech, it was due to Maruo telling her that he loved her regardless. And again, it just plays further to the theme of fellowship since this inspired him to only do things for others.

You see, even though Dagda say's that, the game itself doesn't mean it nor support it. As I have stated again and again, he is the only one who states or supports these ideas. Sure if you take everything at face value then it all seems to click and that Dagda's words carry meaning, but dig just a little bit underneath the skin and it all falls apart. Not because his argument is on shaky ground, but because there is no argument present. Everything presents and supports only the side of fellowship, and any point Dagda might have had is disproven through the narrative. And even when it isn't, it is treated as such.

SMTIVA biggest pratfall is it's complete disconnect between showing and telling. It shows one thing, tells another. And when you stop and analyze it, it becomes clear that the whole thing is just a heap of straw with only one side, that tries to have an illusion of a conflicted theme when in reality one central theme is put on an invincible pedestal, with another theme cast at the side that attempts to look like it could be a threat, but that is clearly isn't as soon as the surface layer is swiped away. The Pedestal remains, unbent, unbowed, unbroken.

edited 27th Jun '17 12:50:45 PM by matteste

I guess this is where I disagree, because I don't think it's close to bring as bad as you feel. But I also take my experience from playing IV into consideration, and humans did many of the things Dagda rightfully points out they do in that game. Even for iVA Mikado Epidemic DLC shows "twisted" bonds by depicting Hugo binding people to him and God via the Demon Gene.

In that case, I can see why they should have done as originally planned and Include the original but updated. IVA cast is also ignorant of a lot of the scummy shit behind the scenes too, with them never learning of the Demon Gene. Only Nanashi.

I mean, human nature is a complex and hard to pin down subject- It's not that human nature is just all the bad stuff and any more considerate action is some weird rejection of the basic notion of one's nature. It's a mixed bag. Just because we're not good all the time doesn't mean we're inherently evil all the time instead.

Ah, now I see where the problem in this discussion lies. I had a hunch, but this confirmed it.

You're not looking at this independently, but at the same time you are not looking at the whole. Mind Screw I know.

What I mean is that you are justifying it with outside sources, not the game's own merits. Those sources being the original IV and audience reactions. The core issue I brought up was the games bias to one side but at how at the same time it tries to present the illusion of a choice by having one side that can't qualify as a legitimate side due to the Strawman Fallacy. The problem with bringing in those outside sources is that neither Dagda nor the conflict where present in those. Sure they may take place in the same universe, but they are still separate entities. Cause when you look at it from an outside lens, then of course the things Dagda says make sense, anything can be made sense of if you do that. If you do that you can cherry pick anything and he would not seem wrong regardless of argument.

The big issue is that again, this is something independent in this game, and in the game it is treated as false, no matter how much Dagda tries to say otherwise. The game makes sure that he is always wrong. Outside he might have a point, but inside he is dead in the water and never had a chance since the entire game is built against him.

What I meant about not looking at the whole, I notice a whole lot of "Dagda says, Dagda says, Dagda says", Dagda seem to say a lot of things, but is there ever anything besides what he says that properly affirm his statements and remain valid to the end in the game, not outside of it? Again with the whole outside lens thing. Anything can be justified with outside sources unrelated to the core issue or that don't even exist in the conflict.

The Hunters were going to turn on Nanashi and Asahi for releasing Krishna, in fact the Divine Powers activating the Mandala is what stopped this from happening. Indeed when you go Anarchy these people try to act on their resentment, arrogantly thinking gathering together as a group would somehow work when they were incapable of harming Merlabah or Lucifer while Nanashi defeated both.

Toki herself actually did the calling out on the hypocrisy of the Ring funny enough, and it never gets refuted. It says a lot about he organization that Maitreya is the one whose genuine in the mindset and views himself as being weak upon defeat.

The Mikado dlc is about how Hugo "bonds" the people to God and planned on doing it to the people of Tokyo by infecting them with the gene. He even tries to say as he died he did it for the sake of the people and their happiness, who he threw away like trash to protect himself while acting like they were united.

Plus the creepy obsession with Flynn is a plot point itself, even without NPC who mention it. Tokyos worship and over dependence of him grew strong enough that they would hurl rocks at Nanashi for trying to stop them during the Merkabah fight and both leaders saw how he tried to protect the masses who are ungrateful towards him an continue praising Flynn like hey did nothing. The Divine Powres only used that to their advantage, the unhealthy obsession that could even deify a human was already there.

Gaston himself actually doesn't contribute anything meaningful gameplay wise or story wise. He's pretty much the worse handled party member in that regards. Even Asahi and Toki and Nozomu provide some use in combat. In fact the little he did do was stuff Nanashi could do on his own.

edited 28th Jun '17 1:12:16 AM by OmegaRadiance

Come on, it's not like Nanashi solo'd Merkabah and Lucifer on his own. He canonically has demons and partners helping him.

So, odd question I have.

From a literal, story standpoint...why are we the leader? In the last game we were among peers, just Samurai venturing into Tokyo, but nobody really considered us "the leader"; in any case, we were a small group of mature adults.

In this one, though, you seem to have taken on some sort of leadership position among everybody...why? It can't be because we're Dagda's Godslayer, since his name doesn't carry weight, or for maturity, since we're just fifteen years old...it's just something that confused me.

edited 28th Jun '17 3:57:32 AM by PastryPerson

Because we're the main character?

Wouldn't be the first game where a fifteen year old leads a group consisting of people older than he is. Roy leads a bigger group than Nanashi does, and he's the same age as Nanashi.

In all seriousness, while Nanashi leading the group is most definitely because he's the main character, I can kind of see why the others would let him lead. After all, he's the one that pulls the most weight in terms of fighting (gameplay-wise, because he's the main character). When Maitreya's Mandala appears and effectively cripples most of the Hunters, the group ends up having to depend on Nanashi a bit more since he isn't as affected. Since this is where the others have to depend on him more than usual, this is where they begin to see he's got what it takes to lead the group.

I suppose by the time you get to the Cosmic Egg and deal with Krishna once and for all (assuming you go the Bonds route), Nanashi has proven himself to be a capable enough leader and fighter that the others are content to let him lead, even if he's fifteen years old.

edited 28th Jun '17 6:56:56 AM by dragonfire5000

Fair enough.

Anyway, here's something I made from a low-res Snoop Dogg meme, Dagda's likeness, and Paint.

when your godslayer betrays you but your mom makes a new you and gives him back his powers◊

I'm fighting Odin now; I find it interesting how, when the choice comes to rely on Dagda's strength, you and your allies, or neither; you can actually lean even more towards the Massacre route if you've been paying close enough attention to what Dagda's been saying. Dagda wants you to rely on your own power; so, instead of taking his power, or teaming up with your allies, you should choose "neither". Upon doing so, Dagda will laugh, elated, say "That's my Godslayer", and you (but not your demons) will be buffed.

edited 28th Jun '17 9:43:04 AM by PastryPerson

Nozomi is incompetent and couldn't deal with one little Jack Frost turned King Frost, Asahi is a healer, Gaston, Toki, and Navarre force themselves into the group, and Hallelujah was told to follow Nanashi and sucked at fighting until he actually embraced his demonic heritage.

Also Adults Are Useless goes for most of Tokyos Hunters.

To be fair, I know a few people who couldn't handle the one little Jack Frost turned into a King Frost. Then again, most of those people were ones who didn't have a demon that could use Magaon...

See, now were getting somewhere.

The first two end up moot, cause like I repeatedly stress, it never remains valid throughout the game, only in the moment. Both start like you describe, but then turn around and have them become all buddy buddy. They practically apologize and admit that you where right.

The third one on the other hand seem to hold water, while an optional DLC, it does tell in support of the Massacre route though it leans closer to Law than Bonds, something that is already well established even in universe to be straw. What do bug me however with it's validity is that it is labeled as a slaughter which throw wrenches around, and not to talk about one huge plot hole it induces if IV is taken into the calculation. But I guess for now, I'll give you this one.

That one actually seem to be one of the sole pro Dagda point's in the main story. The idea was sound, but was horribly written and executed. My main issue with it aside from the writing is that it ties more with the anti god theme instead of the bonds theme. Since what was on display here was admiration and faith, as in what the Divine Powers where after. In terms of themes it has nothing to do with either Dagda nor Danu.

As for Gaston, that point seems kinda random. He was just another pointless character amongst a long line of them that was just there to show the whole friendship overpowers all with how he starts as a jerk spouting that you always fight alone to just another blob among the numbers who support the strength friendship gave him. He and Toki are perhaps the most obvious counterpoint's to Dagda.

At least we seem to be in agreement that Nozomi is just full of hot air and one of the most pointless characters in your pointless entourage. Heck, she is even completely derailed from what little we saw of her IV incarnation.

As for Nanashi being appointed the leader, there is no reason. He is just given the role just cause. The whole game kinda wants to hammer the point in that adults are useless for the sake of an escapism fantasy.

But Nozomi has green glasses.

I disagree that Nozomi was "derailed" from what we saw of her in IV. In IV, she's characterized as a woman who loves photography, looks out for others (like Flynn, who's very "fish out of water" in Tokyo), is resigned that other Hunters suck up to her but don't actually chip in to help, and is willing to take on the role of "Queen of the Fairies" in empathy to their plight.

In Apocalypse, her weaponization of photography (Photo Flash) means she still indulges in photography to some extent, she looks out for the younger members of the group like Asahi and Nanashi (even when she tells them she needs to report what happened with Krishna's unsealing, she doesn't blame them like the other Hunters do), and is taking her role of "Queen of the Fairies" seriously, always making their welfare a high priority.

Really not seeing a "derail" here.

It remains valid actually because the people themselves never realized how stupid they were acting. It was Fujiwara who was trying to look at things rationally even before the Mandala activated that said that his record and his actions during the Mandala were all the proof he needs. Nanashi don't encounter the hunters that knew it was him again till that fight. They were willing to turn on Fujiwara too.

And the characters making jokes and being stupid during serious moments, like when Toki becomes Inanna, or whining about how Nanashi wanted Satan to say something cool before the battle on Peace. Indeed they can't even say nice things about Navarre without quickly degrading it into a joke at his expense.

My point about Gaston is that he doesn't even prove as a counterpoint, because he literally offers nothing, even when he depends on others like Odins Gungnir to make himself strong. He is if anything the partner that proves Dagda's point right. Even after "character development" he still steals press turns and provide little use in combat. Even Toki has more value cause she can instant kill random encounters.

He's the leader because most adults are incompetent. This was a fact even in IV, where over reliance on Reds left the people too weak to protect themselves. Even Hope has been consistently shown in both games in Mikado to be useless as a leader because he chose to follow authority despite disliking what he was doing in IV. Ashura-Kai and Ring of Gaea were defeated by a couple of teens who recently became adults and completely usurped the status quo, which is mentioned even in IVA.

I mean you act like we can't use IV as a basis for things in IVA, when it was originally made with the intent of being part of IV before they decided to make it its own game.

Your opinion on truly confounds me, because it's no different from Triangulum being its own story tied into Desu 2 Septentrione. The only difference is that those two, barely, had space to fit together as a whole because of all the voiced dialogue.

Actually Nozomi wastes her camera on enemies in battle with one of her skills, when Nozomi herself had been big on taking care and not wasting film because of how finite it is in IV and to take care of the cameras for the same reason. She never even mentions how she wants to see the pictures Flynn took with the camera she gave him because the game ignores how the two interacted.

Also she gets rid of all her elemental magic, leaving her with solely gun skills. Because Nozomi wanted to suck worse than she already did in IV.

edited 28th Jun '17 11:36:09 AM by OmegaRadiance

I played through the game assuming she crammed a demon in her camera to give it its Sukunda + Daze effect. Also, I contest that she was more useless in Apocalypse. At least I don't see her getting stuffed into Wicker Men every time you encounter a group of them.

Next time I play that quest in IV, I should totally play this song during the quest:

edited 28th Jun '17 11:17:14 AM by dragonfire5000