Anti-Atheist Violence in Bangladesh

Background: 4 were killed as mobs arose demanding the execution of several atheist bloggers. One was murdered. The response of the Bangladeshi authorities have been to arrest the other three.

I'd like to know what can be done to help the Atheist Association of Bangladesh here. Anyone from that part of the world or nearby with advice on the situation?

(For those willing to view NSFW graphic images, more links and info here. You have been warned. The pictures are NOT pretty.)

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Blasphemy laws are a joke and I will prove it. Qu'ran 5 The Repast:44-47 (ASA)

For those of you who want further context (as the Qu'ran often lacks it) read Sahih Muslim: 17:4214. This was a command by the prophet, peace be upon him, to the Jews, to continue to stone each other to death and to not reform softer punishments for adultery.^note There happened to pass by Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) a Jew blackened and lashed. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called them (the Jews) and said: Is this the punishment that you find in your Book (Torah) as a prescribed punishment for adultery? They said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) called one of the scholars amongst them and said: I ask you in the name of Allah Who sent down the Torah on Moses if that is the prescribed punishment for adultery that you find in your Book. He said: No. Had you not asked me in the name of Allah, I would not have given you this information. We find stoning to death (as punishment prescribed in the Torah). But this (crime) became quite common amongst our aristocratic class. So when we caught hold of any rich person (indulging in this offence) we spared him, but when we caught hold of a helpless person we imposed the prescribed punishment upon him. We then said: Let us agree (on a punishment) which we can inflict both upon the rich and the poor. So We decided to blacken the face with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: O Allah, I am the first to revive Thy command when they had made it dead. He then commanded and he (the offender) was stoned to death.

This is not abrogated by anything and in fact is a direct blasphemy against Christianity as Jesus brought the gospel, as in good news. Gospels as stated implies he brought law, as in something written rather than that later being recorded by his followers based on memory. Furthermore Jesus came to fulfill the law by giving new instruction to replace the old laws that applied to the pact as foretold by Ezekiel. By his example Jews were to stop stoning each other to death.

What is more we go to John 1-14 (NLV)

This is a blasphemy against Al-Qu'ran! Allah is not none that would have children! Allah would never stoop so low as to become human which are nothing compared to him or live among them or share his glory with him! Man is to completely submit and become a slave to Allah, most merciful.

It then becomes clear that the large majority of world religions are blasphemies against each other and the only way to properly institute a blasphemy law is to ban discussion on religion altogether, save you have some form of religion whose doctrine is so flexible that nothing said against it can be considered offensive.

In this light this repeal should be re-repealed. All six were clearly guilty of blasphemy by merely having a religion at all. clearly those claiming blasphemy are guilty of blasphemy by not recognizing the Buddha said "conflict is pointless". The entire idea of a blasphemy law is blasphemy to Buddhism and traditional Hinduism Nay, the blasphemy law is naught but an atheist conspiracy meant to destroy religion as we know it! Find me the names and locations of the infidel Kafiroon who suggested such an idea so that I may issue a Fatwa against them!

edited 7th Apr '13 11:32:22 AM by Cider

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

...What are you trying to say??

Not much can be done I suppose.

I mean Bangladesh is pretty much Asia's Haiti. Except with a greater overpopulation problem. And religious radicals.

Yeah.

But on the bright side it's still in better shape than N. Korea and Somalia.

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

That's an exceedingly low bar.

Trivialis? That the blasphemy law and the very idea that blasphemy can be a punishable offense is the problem when religion clearly cannot operate with contrary views. How is one to learn and ask questions if they are too afraid their question may lead to fine/imprisonment/beheading?

It is hardly just atheists facing problems for it. Christians and Muslims have been jailed for nonviolent crimes...for not any kind of crime really and Buddhists temples are being destroyed by angry mobs who think they are legally justified.

And most importantly, as this law clearly does no good for religion and me have seen how these people are reacting to it my suggestion is to find the fool who suggested it and punish him/them by his/their own form(s) of punishment. Bangladesh what happened to you?

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If you're trying to say that you can't have blasphemy laws and religious freedom, I completely agree with you, but you could've just said that.

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Any way to smuggle these guys into Nepal or India?

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Unfortunately there are only two effective ways to combat religions. By guilt tripping the faithful by showing them how they are acting contrary to their own religion's teaching or by extreme persecution. Okay, there is a third way, which is to move their hearts and minds through living by example but that only works if the values they hold dear are even remotely similar to yours. That a blasphemy law was even suggested suggests their values are pretty alien to pretty much everyone else. I suggest they would fit the Tautological Templar trope if this were a work of fiction.

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Actually, 'eye for an eye' was originally intended as damage-limitation, making sure the punishment was proportionate to the crime rather than being overly extreme.

History!

edited 6th Apr '13 10:58:49 AM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

And the point of the quote "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" is that, even with proportional responses, violence and revenge leads to more violence and revenge. While an eye for an eye was about reducing violence, the quote is about eliminating violence.

India hates Bangladesh immigrants so much that they've developed a conspiracy theory to explain the immigration.

So no luck there.

edited 7th Apr '13 12:19:06 AM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016

Shit. That leaves Nepal.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

Clearly and obviously, Cider, blasphemy laws require a state recognized or regional dominated religion. Bangladesh is 90% Muslim AND Islam is the state recognized religion. Being blasphemous against other religions is irrelevant under their laws and customs.

Oh, by no means do I agree with blasphemy laws but the claim the blasphemy laws are inherently self-defeating is simply using the idea that 'Freedom of Religion' is universally recognized.

Keep it breezy!

If any deity feels I have slandered them they are free to sue me.

Yes, but Bangladesh authorities, unlike those in Pakistan as a counter example, are willing to prosecute Muslims for blasphemy laws too or at least drop cases of blasphemy again non Muslim religions if by rights Muslims will be brought down in the case with the Kafiroon/people of scripture/pagans/whathaveyou.

Okay trivialis, it took me a while but now I see why that post was hard to understand so I reworded some of it in my edit and added more lines from the Muslim Trilogy to show just why blasphemy law does not work. Is the message a little more clear now?

History of al-tabari I:93

I:101 Keep in mind there were Christians in Mecca too. Waraqa was a Christian called to help Muhammad with his supposed demonic possession (Shaih Bukari 1:1:3) and declared he was merely showing signs of prophecy(The majority of the Meccans though Waraqa was an incompetent exorcist in Ibn Isaq 132-133). That means that Muhammad was a worse blasphemer than the Christians before him and Christians are notorious for trying to convert people. There were also other monotheist of undetermined faith who criticized the Kaaba before Muhmmah's did in Sahih Bukari 5:58:169(and this hadith narration also says they openly blasphemed Christianity and Judaism, Meccans tolerated blasphemy no matter the faith). They did not say these things because they were unfamiliar but because Muhammad was the worst they ever heard.

In fact, it was not even blasphemy that caused the pagans to start oppressing the Muslims actively, it was because a Muslim had killed a pagan who was arguing with him (Ibn Isaq, Sirat Rasul Allah page 118). I am not going to say who was correct (the book obviously says the pagans were wrong) just that blasphemy has been a trait of Islamic religion since its earliest days in a culture where blasphemy against religion was nothing particularly strange. (And the only one the pagans wanted to kill was Muhammad, Meccas were nicer pagans than the Romans and Babylonians before them)

Sura 68 says that Muhammad is an exalted standard of character, which is later supported in sura 60. Just as Abraham was the moral standard of his time, so is Muhammad now. According to Islaam there have been no prophets since Muhammad and as prophets are uswa hasana, models of perfect character, Muhammad must be emulated as closely as possible until another prophet comes and abrogates his teachings.

Thus, the holy Qu'ran commands you to blasphemy! If you want to push a hypocritical law, Indonesia, that says Muslims can blasphemy all they want but none can do so back to them fine, we will just settle for typing obscenities at your secular establishment that dares interfere with things not of material understanding but as it is this blasphemy law is a hindrance to those Muslims who want to emulate their prophet. Clearly whoever issued it at best did not understand his own religion or at worst actually tried to attack it, it an all religions! Now the innocent atheist are being dragged down too. Down with the blasphemy law, it is a blasphemy!

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

But that's what followers are for.

Join my forum game!

It appears that the PM of Bangladesh agrees with us on blasphemy laws!

EDIT: But as usual, atheists get the shaft.

edited 8th Apr '13 5:05:54 PM by RadicalTaoist

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

I used to look at Bangladesh as a nation making progress. I cannot for the life of me remember why and now when I look at it I recoil in disgust. Exactly why is "terrorized" in quotation marks when there is nothing in the story that says otherwise.

Yes, this is how religious minorities have it. What chance do the unbelievers? Exactly how much worse could the Indians treat them? Cross the border and join the garudas I say. Train hard for the day when you can have your revenge! The advantage of atheism is you do not have to put up with that "love your enemies" stuff right?

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Not if you happen to espouse Humanism at the same time. Shame on you.

Payback doesn't pay. A totally secular and empirical look at the consequences of revenge-seeking behaviour shows us the former Yugoslavia, the tribes of Afghanistan, the conflict in the Holy Land. Forget that nonsense. Atheists can seek justice in Bangladesh and they can find a way without violence.

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If, but the violence in the holy land and Afganistan pales to that in Tibet, who were(are) virtually steamrolled by the people's republic of China and the where force was flashed in Korea actually death tolls are much lesser than similar situations further west..

Well whatever, do not call it revenge then but I think it does humanity a favor to fight oppression wherever it occurs. If violence is not your first response maybe that is a good thing but is it humanist to let a cancerous form of law spread because they other guy threatens you in his ignorance? Who was injured by some atheist bloggers declaration of a godless reality? Was it god they hurt? The Bible says such things do not harm him and it definitely hurt no people. Yes someone mobs have came to the conclusion these people should be hung for some words on the internet.

(this is also a good reason to keep the internet anonymous, if you want to give out your identity or location make it voluntary. Proxy for life)

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Interestingly, there have been blog posts lately at Freethought Blogs on this exact topic, given Sam Harris' recent comments.

A particularly insightful excerpt:

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The caliphate was full of expansionists colonials before "The West" overtook them(everything the Europeans did, slaughter of local populations, slavery, racism, destruction of civilization and written records, already occurred occurred according to al-Tabari's history, their own source). Anti colonialism is an apologetic Euro-centric excuse we need to stop falling back on. The west would by rights be equally afraid of colonization if the "dar al-islam" was anywhere near as competent as the "dar al-harb".

Your(our) ancestors and politicians did(do) a lot of evil but that does not make the other side something to be whitewashed. Kyhbar happened before the reconquesta and the latter was defensive desperation movement against colonialism. Separation of Church and State was internal for everyone else if I remember correctly. Will it take another 550 years for internal separation of Mosque and state?

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That is missing the point and falling off topic; this is not the "fix the Islamic world thread" either.

All that has been occurring world wide since the Bronze Ages. The destruction of the kingdom of Zhao by the kingdom of Qin when Qin Shihuangdi unified China is a more organized early example, as was the conquests of the Germanic territories by the Roman Empire. Yeah, when African countries are funding resource wars in our lands for cheap and easy access to diamonds or iPhone materials, and when Chinese companies are getting Western workers to manufacture their goods for pennies on the dollar, and Latin America's private prison industries are getting rich by supporting policies that jail our migrants and exacerbate drug wars in our lands, then we can stop talking about colonialism. I made the thread to discuss the wrongs the "other side" was doing. What doesn't count as whitewashing? Is suggesting that violence is not a solution whitewashing? Is suggesting that they have to make their own decisions and be responsible for their own countries because the West can't and shouldn't try to fix things for them whitewashing? With the Internet? I doubt it, these flareups are very recent. Ten years ago you heard nothing about atheists in the Islamic world - nothing at all. Now they're prevalent enough to make sheikhs cry (literally, in the case of Hamza Kashgari). If we can stop giving regressive elements political cover with our stupid invasions and regime engineering, and maintain access to open information and digital media, I give it a century tops.

Share it so that people can get into this conversation, 'cause we're not the only ones who think like this.

There are still African countries running slave labor, forced prostitution and whether or they are not doing it to "western" countries much does not make it any better, unless you want to argue it is being done "only" because of western influence.

You are correct, I have heard nothing about atheists in Bangladesh in the last ten years but the place has been persecuting, deporting, performing military strikes on and generally being uninviting to Hindus for forty years. Is it somehow worse now that atheists in the news? The government itself has made "progress" but it is not something I would put too much faith in. Violent mobs can cripple a democracy and if the solution is to move mob targets out of Bangladesh to India(Nepal), well that just helps the mob get what they want out of the government.

Will we see a content population then or will they still go off on Youtube videos? Yes, this whole "blasphemy" thing was kicked off by a 14 minute web video about Muhammad Ibn Abdullah (which lead to the maker's arrest in USA, land of free speech). I suppose the Hindu majority should have attacked the nearest groups contrary to them and demanded a blasphemy law from the Indian government when Clone High, a whole series featuring Mahatmas Gandhi was made or when Xena treated their gods like fictional characters in the 1990s. They would only be following the example of the 1980s Satanic Verses fatwa right?

In fact, moving them to India is not guaranteed safety, the country is no stranger to terrorist attacks from its neighbors, who tend to hold on to these grudges for a long time. To me if you were going to have to drop what you were doing to try and find employment in a new country, a new country that might be offending its neighbors just by taking you in, military service seems like a valid career path. (the part about training for revenge was a joke)

But how many of the African countries making Western luxuries are directly related to this blasphemy issue anyway? How many Chinese people are arresting and terrorizing bloggers over a post about God to vent anger over a youtube video about a long dead Bedouin? How many Apaches or Lumbis(who had to fight just to be recognized as people) are resorting to suicide detonations? How many Guatemalans(filibustering corporations overthrew two of their elected officials while the CIA sat on its hands) are are attacking embassies? Surely they are equal if not greater victims of western colonialism than Bengal(who were helped with free elections)

I do not buy that this is all European colonial baggage (though the British did leave a great deal of it, especially in 1930) nor that it is right to only look at this issue as atheists. I think this goes back to Caliphate imperial conquest against India in 715 and that we as human beings are still being hindered by the policy that emerged from therein.

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