Women's Issues

I'm not sure if that's in response to anything in particular, but we've had this conversation before. There's an enormous difference between "you could have taken steps to reduce your risk" and "you did XYZ, so you deserved what happened". The fact of the matter is, certain actions increase your risk of rape. Pointing this out is not victim blaming or rape apologetics. I'm not actually sure if dressing "provocatively" (insert whatever adjective you prefer) is one of those things or not — that sort of thing we'd have to leave up to scientific studies.

What is completely unacceptable is to suggest that it's okay to rape people if they cross certain lines by undertaking those risky actions. Rape is never okay. But if the goal is for fewer women to be raped, then we should absolutely identify things that increase one's risk of rape and get that information out to the public.

As has been said before, "taking steps to avoid your rape" has two separate, but interconnected, problems:

1. It involves doing things that are invasive in a person's everyday life. "Don't go down this street". "Don't be in this specific place at this specific time of day." "Don't wear this type of outfit."
2. It requires more effort than, for example, locking the door of a house. Closing their windows, turning a key or pressing a button on a door is typically all we expect someone to do to avoid a theft.

Putting those together, "take these steps to avoid rape" typically involves limiting the way a woman lives her life in ways which are inherently oppressive.

If a house in the suburbs, or a gated community, gets robbed, no one ever tells someone they need to put bars on (or brick up) their windows. Or that they should put all their valuables (which are already in their home) inside a safe that can't be carried out. And yet, people in poor neighborhoods are told this constantly.

Similarly, no one ever tells a man with a suit, tie and briefcase that he shouldn't wear those if he doesn't want to attract pickpockets. Hell, we tell people all the time not to look at their phones or to wear a watch (so that they don't pull out phones to check time) and they do it anyway and protect it like a basic right. Yet, we tell women that they need to curb the way they dress and act, and all of a sudden, this is acceptable.

And considering that most rapes are done by someone the victim is familiar with or worst a family member (especially in cases of child rape), most of those "preventative measures" aren't applicable.

@ Tobias : ... Please dont use a comparison like that, all it did was make me kinda see the people who say "You should not have been wearing that"'s point, and I really don't agree with them.

Wood is a bad building material, especially if there is any risk of fire, that ended up getting more people killed in WWII then both nuclear bombs put together did, If you can avoid using it, you really, really should.

@ Joey : Why exactly? Equality is about just that Equality, take the good with the bad, and there will always be a need for militaries, Equal service IS a large victory.

@ Gabriel : I am still kind of confused about that particular statistic? Sorry. Is it date rape? Or not understanding consent that is pushing the results twords people you know?

edited 19th Dec '14 11:30:21 AM by Imca

Most children (under 18 years) are raped by a family member or some other form of authority.

Even as an adult, you are more likely to be raped by someone you know (friend, colleague, partner, etc.) then you are some masked villain in a dark alley.

You are most at risk to be raped by family, an intimate partner or former intimate partner, or a friend. The place you are most likely to be raped is at home, or at the home of a relative, intimate partner, or friend.

Same reason most murderers aren't serial killers?

Yes, indeed. Most murderers are known to the victim as well.

In fact, that is the leading murderer for women: their partner...

So the best way to prevent rape is to not have a partner... or friends... or coworkers... or family... heh. Might as well just stop existing altogether. Best rape prevention advice ever.

Of course, most proponents of the "protect yourself" advice would say that they don't mean anything that extreme.

@Tobias, I agree with everything you're saying but I'm curious as to where this came from. Did I miss a long string of posts where people asked about what a victim was wearing?

On the more general point. 1: The kind of advise normally given is a crock of shit (dress has nothing to do with it, the best advise you could probably give someone is to be very aware of who they trust and let into their lives, so asshole identification). 2: Audience matters, if you're giving advise to a victim you're being an ass, give advise to potential victims sure (assuming it's actually good reasonable advise), but if it's someone who's already been victimised they don't need your prevention advise, they need your support.

Just pointing out that such advice is useless considering context of most rapes, unless taken to the logical extreme. So... just useless.

Oh I agree with you, but I don't think you'll get through to anyone with that viewpoint with that particular argument. They're likely to defend their position by calling your argument a Perfect Solution Fallacy or saying, "Even if that's true, stranger rape still happens, so our advice still reduces rape, even if only by a small amount."

Which is why I point out how invasive it is on quality of life, rather than point out that it's equivalent to rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

It came from an allegorical conversation about victim-blaming that a friend and I had in the wake of seeing the Hobbit movies, shooting pointed jabs back and forth like, "Well, maybe they should have tried to not look so appetizing!" and "If the dwarves didn't want to be attacked by a dragon, perhaps they shouldn't have had all that gold!"

We've discussed previously on this thread the topic of whether or not it is appropriate to question a rape victim's attire and behavior, inquiring as to whether it contributed to the rape. This seemed appropriate to that discussion.

edited 19th Dec '14 2:53:23 PM by TobiasDrake

@King Zeal: There's a quote I read in on of my father's books on boating that always stuck with me, and it applies here...

Safety is always in the back of one's mind, never forgotten or ignored. Safety is not an arbitrary set of rules but rather the practical application of knowledge, as common-sense requirements and practices should be thoroughly understood and followed.

If hazards of any nature are recognized and respected, they largely cease to be hazards.

Charles F. Chapman, "On Boating"

Now in the context we're discussing here, I think this quote is quite topical for the following reason...any lesson on risk management for a woman trying to avoid sexual assault ought to expand her options and choices in life, not reduce them.

See, the quote comes from a book about how to safely take a boat out on the water...a dangerous activity by any metric. And after all, if you don't want to get in a shipwreck, easy answer is easy, just stay land-bound. But what if you want to go out on the water? How is that done safely? What does one need to know to enjoy a boating trip without worrying about ending up in the drink?

Much as I support the concept of discussing risk management for women (mainly because I've seen individual women do cosmically stupid things, get hurt and end up sitting in a corner crying "WHY ME??" when the answer's obvious), too many talking heads on the subject default to "well, just don't go here/do that". Which is asinine in my view. That's not an education on anything. That's just somebody trying to exert power over a stranger's life.

I wish more risk management discussions delved into things like "okay, here's what dressing sexy looks like and these are the possible repercussions you'll encounter for doing it" or "let me discuss the anatomy of a wild drunken party and what you're likely to encounter there" or even "here's what a man who might rape you looks/acts like". Assuming factual accuracy that'd be real risk management; a big slice of knowledge that lets the end user make choices that are more informed. Much like my father's manual on boating leaves a reader more informed about the inherently dangerous act of taking a craft out on the water.

"Want to go here? This is what you'll find" is education. "Don't go here, you'll get hurt if you do" is somebody trying to control you through fear. Too much of "risk management" discussion is that second one, however well-intentioned the writer might be.

Drunk said it better than I did. I'm not saying that there should be hard and fast rules "do this and don't do that, or else getting raped is your fault". I'm saying that giving women accurate information on the issue and allowing them to make informed choices based on that is a good thing, and certainly better than not doing that.

@Jovian: When it comes to human interaction, "hard and fast rules" don't exist - which is why people hawking them are frankly full of it. Going back to my quote, safety isn't an arbitrary set of rules...it can't be, because no rule can predict the totality of human experience. Rather, its about applying a body of relevant knowledge to deal with the unique and individual circumstances that are in front of you right there and right then, and to do so in a way that is most beneficial to your individual needs.

The reason we don't see more discussions that actually educate women on the risks; if women had that kind of knowledge, well then they might end up empowered and society sure as hell doesn't want that to happen. Thus is the "risk management" discussion the cesspit of indoctrination that it is right now.

edited 19th Dec '14 9:49:51 PM by drunkscriblerian

I've seen men do some pretty stupid, boneheaded things too. I can go to a party full of people I've never met, get piss drunk, and pass out on the couch in reasonable confidence that nobody will rape me while I'm asleep. I also don't have to worry much that, as soon as we're alone together, someone I considered to be a close friend is going to do a complete 180 on their personality and start pressuring me for sex, spying on me in the shower, and/or slipping me a roofie.

The reason the risk management discussion is flawed by its very premise is that the people most often talking about rape prevention things that women should do are men, and men are poorly lacking in the appropriate life experience to really understand the dangers of the female experience. Case in point:

Every single person you have ever met in your entire life. Every. Single. One. A man who might rape you looks like everyone you know, because it often comes from the place you least expect. From your best friend. From your brother. From other women. Trying to teach women to avoid men who seem rapey would only work if you teach women to abstain from human contact entirely.

It is sheer arrogance for men to believe that we are uniquely suited to educate women on the dangers of rape.

edited 19th Dec '14 10:02:02 PM by TobiasDrake

No it isn't, for one very simple reason; men are in a position to see how potential rapists act when there are no women around. Women fundamentally do not have access to this knowledge, because they cannot see it firsthand.

Now, important point here; I'm talking about the malicious kind of asshole, not the clueless kind...and while that second is a problem we can fix said problem with a dose of education. As in, you can fix clueless by handing them a clue. You can't fix malice that way.

Decent men get to see what a macho asshole really looks like and how his behavior can be spotted even under a layer of pretty words and nice behavior. We can observe both how said individuals act when women are around and when they aren't, see the commonality of behavior...and then share this knowledge with the women they know. Or better yet share it with women in general.

One of the big problems here is that decent men want to protect those they care about, and since they often lack the ability to explain what they're seeing, they default to the "just don't go here, that's safe" speech. Furthermore, plenty of assholes mimic this same speech in an attempt to control female behavior by limiting choice - like most social problems nothing is cut and dried.

But no, Tobias. Men are in fact in the best position to help educate women on how to stay safe. We're just fucking it up, and the reasons we're doing so are myriad.

Yeah, and that's the biggest issue. Most of the time the bad descision that a woman makes is trusting a family member, or a close friend, or dating anyone, or having a job. Those are the things most likely to get you raped. Not having a drink. Not walking down a dark alley. Normal human interaction is the most risky thing for a woman.

An example that comes to mind for me is in fraternal situations, you sometimes have that one guy who is a little too eager to give all the details about his sexual exploits. After a while, it becomes clear that he's fabricating and embellishing details regarding the extent to which the woman in question was consenting or fully aware of the details of their encounter.

I don't think we should lay down the law on guys who are bragging about how they scored last weekend because there's a difference between being an actual sex offender and just being an asshole. However, I've noticed from time to time that there tends to be that one fellow (or fellows) who is actively employing some very legally dubious methods to get sex and other "invitations", and it's likely up to other men in the group to catch this red flag.

edited 19th Dec '14 10:32:57 PM by Aprilla

@Shima: Well, human interaction in general carries a measure of inherent risk for everyone. You can get raped...I can get robbed, beaten or killed - and according to the statistics I've read on the subject (as well as my own experiences) I'm just as likely to have one of those three happen to me as you are to have that first one happen to you. On balance I don't think the grass is greener, its just a slightly different species.

@Aprilla: Yeah, excellent point. Working in construction and other "manly" jobs as I have I've seen a lot of that, and sometimes its tough to know what to say.

I'm dealing with a situation at work right now with a co-worker who is much younger than me...he's heard about my wilder days and wants advice about women while simultaneously trying to impress me with stories of his own "conquests". Right now I'm trying to prod him into the idea that he'll do better with women if he starts regarding them as people and viewing dating as a negotiation, not a numbers game - all the while making sure to do it in a fashion he'll actually listen to rather than blow off. I mean, what's the point of saying it if he doesn't take it in?

Again, tough to know what to say and how to say it. Like I said above, nothing's cut and dried here.

@Aprilla Usually when I met a person that braggy their details of sexual encounters have been so laughably inconsistent the only encounter I imagined them having is of the drug kind. Although I myself am also not the most mature person when it comes to bragging... I do like to share what makes me happy.

The people who I'd put red flags on are the people who talk about someone they know in a... specific way. Something like "Can you believe this shit, Brenda didn't go out with me! Pathetic bitch won't recognize a REAL man like me! I'll show her..." Something like that.

@Drunk Did you yourself have this problem at his age? If yes, do you remember how you had it solved?

edited 20th Dec '14 2:51:53 AM by Luminosity