Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

You don't have to take responsibility for not having balance in representation, but be prepared for the consequences of not doing so.

Yep.

You can create whatever you like. But you should know what you are getting yourself into.

And there have been some honest misshots. But for the most part being a successful artist means you are also a successful marketer and know what demographic you are targeting.

Pretty much.

One can get away with blatantly mysoginist crap in videogames, popular or not, if disguised enough (read: Paper-Thin Disguise ) but if people cry out something as "A shining example of X done right" then people are going to come and judge that and point out all its flaws. There is also the examples of overly done things: You might want to immediately judge say, Soul Calibur out of Ivy or Taki, but you end up ignoring Voldo or Astaroth if you judge them out of those two. So it beckons for attention in that aspect, while not claiming either, so it is still on the spotlight for all the wrong reasons.

To me, the issue is when authors fail to recognize those flaws when pointed out, defend them, or actually claim they are not flaws and are great things.

Also as a writer you don't have an obligation to do ANYTHING. You can write the most cliched story in existence. The questions are if 1. You're proud with it, and 2. if you attract the fanbase you desire.

There is nothing stopping you from writing the most racist nazi stories you've ever heard of, and having a fandom of white supremacists.

It's just a question if you WANT to or not (and usually, most don't want to).

Disney has their first Polynesian Princess Movie on the way!

When is there gunna be a latina princess? XD

That interview doesn't actually call her a princess. *shrug* (I just think they could do with less princesses in general and more... just girls???)

Anyway that looks like a great concept art. Since Maui is mentioned I'm going to assume this is going to be based at least partially in Hawaiin myth. I've already seen people discussing this a while ago; people were kind of annoyed because polypenesian evidently covers A LOT of places and cultures and were concerned that Disney would end up going very generic with this movie.

Speaking of culture and Disney, do you guys think that Disney had improved in that regard especially since Pocahontas and Mulan?

I think the onion sums it up

: Disney CEO Figures They’ve Built Up Enough Goodwill To Do A Real Sexist One

BURBANK, CA—Citing a groundswell of praise for such stereotype-bucking princess films as Frozen, Brave, and Tangled, Walt Disney Company CEO Bob Iger said Thursday his company has probably accumulated enough goodwill to make its next animated feature a real sexist one.

Though still unsure whether the forthcoming fairy-tale adventure would center on a helpless Dutch peasant who splits her time between domestic duties and pining for a rich man, a vain young princess who constantly preens in front of any reflective surface, or a curvaceous, long-lashed horse who inexplicably has rouged cheeks and eye shadow, top Disney officials agreed they are well positioned to sneak in an overly chauvinistic film that exploits antiquated female stereotypes for all they’re worth.

edited 21st Oct '14 1:12:29 AM by joeyjojo

Disney is making two steps forward to one step back.

Mulan was better than Pocohantas but at the same time, the ending to Mulan was bullshit and contrary to the real person they were vaguely basing it off of. Pocohantas was well, problematic to say the least. The sequel even more so. (I never saw the sequel to Mulan.)

I think the Brave was a great improvement, but they didn't market it very well.

Frozen had some better moves. I haven't seen Maleficent yet but I hear that's a better move.

I don't know. Let's see. I also can't help but judge Disney by their Marvel acquisition as well. Give me a Black Widow and/or Hawk-eye movie and we can talk more.

At least this one is brown. I don't care what ethnicity they project next but leave the white people alone for a bit. We have too many other beautiful and neglected cultures who could give us badass stories.

Mmm. Princess and The Frog was ab it mistreated at the Academy Awards...the music was waaaaaaaaaaaay better and deserved the oscar in at least that...

Paralel to that, thinking of the Academy Awards still reminds me Finding Nemo won to the Triplets of Belleuville back in 2001 and it makes me =/

I apologize for the divertion of the subject though. It is not really a male/female specific thing, just of those films, I think.

Mulan wasn't a real person.

Mulan is based on the 16th Century poem of Hua Mulan which was probably inspired by several real life women in Chinese History who accomplished many of the same tasks:

Hao Fu, appeared about 3200 years ago. One oracle inscription carved on animal bones describes her as a commanding marshal of over 13,000 soldiers.

Liang Yu Qin, general, is known for her many victories in both national defense and suppression of internal uprisings. The last emperor of the Ming Dynasty wrote several poems to praise her.

Hong Yu Liang, general, is known for fighting at the side of her husband in many battles. In 1130, her husband’s troops engaged the enemy in a major campaign at ta place called Gold Mountain along the Yang Zi River. Liang beat the battle drum and used flag lights to guide the army. She was not afraid of being killed by the enemies’ arrows and stones, and eventually their 8,000 troops defeated the enemy 10,000. The story “beat battle drum at Golden Mountain, (Ji Gu Zhan Jin Shan) is still used to mobilize Chinese women for national self-defense.

There were also many women who played an important role in leading peasant uprisings such as Mu Lu and Shuo Zhen Chen.

So Mulan was actually a composite character really of these previous generals and warlords most likely who did serve on imperial councils.

Most people say the sequel is a thing that doesn't exist. Apparently it was just really poorly made all around. Disney was kind of hit and miss with its direct to video products in general. (Personally I think the Aladdin sequels were pretty good.)

Not sure how the ending to Mulan is shit??? Anyway I don't understand why Disney can't do that sort of thing more often, by which I mean adapting the stories of other cultures in order to get more people of color out there. It's what they've been doing with European fairy tales forever, so I'm not sure why they're just not doing it with other stories. I mean, they could do that with a Native American tale too, instead of bastardizing an actual historical event.

Actually this makes me wonder if anyone has an opinion about Brother Bear, which also features Native Americans and all I know about it is the main character turns into a bear because reasons. I think it wasn't widely advertised and was possibly also direct to video?

Having Mulan be a complete badass and save China just to reject the council position hand offered by the Emperor just because she wants to go home.

That's shit.

1) It's not congruent with Chinese culture. You don't refuse service like that. The honor and offer are once in a lifetime.

2) You just shot every step forward with little girls and having an empowered character by having her just walk out on the opportunity to achieve success and change.

3) A boyfriend is not a reward. A boyfriend is not a higher goal than a career.

So yeah, Mulan was one step forward to a few steps back.

She didn't exactly choose the boyfriend either. He just showed up. Actually she didn't even ever actively pursue him. It just sort of happened and was not implied to have been a reward as far as I can tell.

Also, in the original story she turns down the post too. So if you're going to complain about the way Disney ended the movie, you'll have to complain about the ending of the original story. Which is fair, as far as I'm concerned, but it's not like Disney deviated greatly from the source material in this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Mulan

There's some interesting bit on another version of the story there actually. Involving her being found and befriended by a fellow woman warrior. Neat.

edited 21st Oct '14 9:49:41 PM by AceofSpades

That's what I linked to originally.

Doesn't matter.

China is a very controlling culture. Disney is not Chinese. Disney didn't give her a boyfriend by accident. It's the Disney formula.

And considering all the changes they've made to other fairy tales to give a better ending (Hunchback of Notre Dame for crying out loud!?) They magically agree to hold to cannon as soon as it's a girl being passive and just wanting to go home instead of being a leader? really?

It's shit.

Mulan has some problems with how it handles women and men, but it's not that bad.

If Mulan was adapted from the poem directly, she'd be an incredibly uninteresting character and there'd be no real conflict, because Hua Mulan just sort of gets things to go her way in the poem.

Didn't Disney's Hercules end the same way? The (male) hero turns down immortality and godhood, the things he'd spent the whole movie striving for, so he could stay with his (female) love interest on Earth.

Yep.

Isn't the position Mulan just got offered some kind of royal adviser? Given the culture at the time I doubt she's very well educated. Her turning it down is the sensible thing to do honestly.

When you're offered a raise in status by the freaking emperor himself, it is irrelevant whether you think you're worth the honor or not. It was given you as a sign of respect; either the emperor really does appreciate your advice or the position is simply honorary.

Either way turning the offer down in a society where changing your social status is by no means easy is not a very smart thing to do.

edited 22nd Oct '14 5:28:13 PM by Paradisesnake

Mulan didn't want any of that, though. She just wanted to keep her father from senselessly throwing his life away.

But the raise in status is not just for her. It also brings honor to the family, and as a family member of the royal adviser her father probably doesn't need to take part in the next war if and when it happens.

edited 22nd Oct '14 6:01:58 PM by Paradisesnake