Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

That's another good one...

Age of Empires II did this a bit.

Granted though only focused on the same old guys but credit goes for the Saladin campaign

edited 18th Sep '14 8:08:25 AM by Aszur

Ooh, are we talking history we'd love to see in a game or film?

Personally, I'd like to see Call of Duty: Triple Alliance or Call of Duty: Uprising.

The history of Alaska is something else that I think would make an epic game/film, as is the story of the Mad Trapper of Rat River. And that's not even beginning to get into all the cool East and Central Asian history: Sejong, Tamurlane, Trần Hưng Đạo, Khorloogiin Choibalsan...

edited 18th Sep '14 8:15:11 AM by Achaemenid

Gimme more Boudicca.

We're way off topic now, I think.

Apocalypto is one of those that makes religious studies scholars cringe, kinda like how classical historians cringe over 300.

It's hard because there are some pretty awesome moments and what they get right they actually do pretty well...

But oh the things they get wrong or the changes they make that deflect or misrepresent the original peoples, that's tricky.

White, cigendered men have all sorts of representation so there is a little more leway sometimes if you get something wrong. But when it comes to minorities, who barely even get acknowledgement of existence let alone to be the heroes or significant characters, I want it done right.

For example, the scifi movie Pandorum. I will never turn down a chance to see Cung Le, let alone have him speak his language. And he was more of a "hero" in the conventional sense. But he ended up being the badass noble sacrifice much like how Sonny Landham turned out as in Predator, almost exactly really. (And actually mirrored with Louis Ozawa Changchien in the 2010 Predators movie.)

It is also interesting to note that domestic movie posters featured the two white men more. While international movie posters either took the top three guys or just Antje Traue. source

Go into Bantu myth: they have tales of coming from a Congolese people who once practised matriarchy. Which fell with a combination of an internal Deadly Decadent Court and outside interference (the introduction of cattle).

Then there are the myths of the Star People: they tried to make themselves "perfect" using what sounds a lot like bioengineering to modern ears... and succeeded. But, perfect turned out to be a dead end and they withered. For all "perfection" came with immortality, it didn't come with a means to stave off the boredom you get with it... added to a lack of some higher brain functions (they're described as looking like vervet monkey and human crosses: still very beautiful... in an ugly way). Other immortals with amoral bents had a field day against them, when they weren't committing suicide themselves.

Tales of lost immortals and the wars between unsanctioned immortals (male and female) and those graced by the natural order. There're tonnes of tales to build RPGs off.

edited 18th Sep '14 8:31:57 AM by Euodiachloris

Not to mention mythology beyond Nordic, or Greek one to go the Titan Quest style of things

I'd like to see the Taiping Rebellion getting more attention. A death toll that rivals the First World War and they actively challenged gender roles. Count me in.

As much as I love this discussion, we should really make a "Ethnical Representation in Fiction" thread.

Is "Ethnical" a word?

edited 18th Sep '14 9:10:26 AM by Achaemenid

It is now.

Tethnically, it is!

IMCA: Down With The GDI! The Brotherhood For Ever!

edited 18th Sep '14 9:21:04 PM by joeyjojo

@ Joey : You must run and hide, while as my units have this for a mantra.

More seriously though, I play heavy on the defenses, and rely on artillery for attacking, and while the obelisk is amazing the sonic turret kills groups, and more importantly the beam cannon has absolutely nothing on the good old Juggernaut.

edited 19th Sep '14 12:59:02 AM by Imca

Henry James and the Y.A. Debate

Though admittedly somewhat tangential to this thread, I thought this article raised excellent points about young adult literature and what impact it has and has had on portrayals of sexuality, resistance to authority, the establishment of manhood and the dissolution of old-vanguard patriarchal notions in fiction. Here are some snippets:

edited 22nd Sep '14 11:31:15 AM by Aprilla

That was an interesting article.

For the kicks of it, here is the current New York Times bestseller list with the aforementioned The Goldfinch by Donna Tartt on number 20.

I've read all the Harry Potters. I've read all the Hunger Games. I've begun reading the Percy Jackson series to see if it was something my son should/could get into. I've even read a few of the books on the list such as Outlander. The most recent "adult" novel I've been reading would be the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R R Martin.

I think the reason why Young Adult novels are becoming so popular among adults as well as children is at least in part, that the young adult novels are more interesting in some ways. Looking at the synopsis of the books written by people like Nora Roberts and Clive Cussler they just don't sound that interesting. And I like early Clive Cussler, but why read about another murder mystery when I can read about something different and something outside of my life like the Gods of Olympus in modern day? True, there are still some adult writers who have the same sort of material such as American Gods by the wonderful Neil Gaiman.

But the adult stuff is not as varied or as different to choose from. I think also that young adult novels tend to be more direct and simplistic with their stories due to the fact they're targeting younger people. But this can have a genuine appeal to an adult who is stressed or just wants to unwind. I know that I enjoy a light tale after a stressful day. And just because something is light in regards to technical complexity, doesn't mean that it's light in content. The Hunger Games has one of the best depictions of PTSD I've ever read.

Harry Potter is one of the few series I would say grew with their audiences. The first book isn't as complex or intense as the seventh book and Rowling did that intentionally. It could be that in general, the young adult category is a lot more adult then people initially gave it credit for.

Clive Cussler is also one of those authors who seems to write the same book over and over again.

Not sure about your thoughts on comics, but if you like Gaiman, you should check out The Sandman.

Not kid friendly, tho.

Understatement.

Heck, most of his works aren't exactly adult-friendly. Coraline: or "how to scare your parents worse than you are".

Sometimes the grotesque is kinda funny. Like. Hell's bar, for the contest. So much silly going on there.

...just try not to think of all the flesh and gore and other eldritch bits of unsanitary Nightmare Fuel that threathens your soul and dreams. Like the diner. Oh god. The diner.

edited 23rd Sep '14 8:44:46 AM by Aszur

Aprilla's article reminded me of a debate I had recently over the relative merits of genre fiction vs. Lit Fic, and the implications this has for a works' "maturity". I suspect that there is a lot of that being debated here: we are seeing the rise of genre fiction at the expense of more literary writing, with it's emphasis on character, emotional nuance, and the consequences of our responses to the overwhelming challenges of real life. No one can "defeat" death, betrayal, a broken heart, or longing for what is not there, one can only adapt or cope with it, and sometimes our attempts to do this generate resistance or interference from other people. Critics look at Harry Potter or the Hunger Games and worry we are losing all that.

Partly it's a generational thing. Has there ever been a period of time in which older, more experienced adults didnt think that the new kids are ruining everything they worked so hard to build? Part of it also is the natural ebb and flow of marketing- certain production companies have noticed the profits to be made by basing epics of mass appeal on works written for teenagers, so that's what get promoted. Some of it is simply selective perception. There is certainly literature being written for teens. "The Fault in Our Stars" and similar works comes to mind. Ruth Graham is wrong and Laura Miller is right, no one should be ashamed to read literature written for teens. The only thing wrong with Fault is that it's a shameless romance novel, a genre normally written for adults. Reading one may or may not be shame-worthy, but that has nothing to do with Young Adult fiction.

And some of it is real. I think that there is a general trend in youth culture away from a more inward self-absorbed perspective toward one that is more focused outward, toward the kind of things that happen between people. This can certainly involve characterization, but sometimes this has to be deduced rather than directly shown. "Gone Girl" is certainly literary as opposed to genre, yet it too is an example of what that article is talking about: easily accessible, very little "literary theory" going on here.

It's not so much the decline of the "White American Male" or even Patriarchy as the decline of any effective social or institutional authority at all. Safety or security is not to be found in society's institutions- they have let us down too many times, events in the world seem out of control, for there to be much faith left in those. Escapism naturally arises in periods like this- the last time this happened was probably the Great Depression, and people noted the rise of relatively light movie and written works at that time too (Shirley Temple, anyone?). Now our faith is in the simple hero, male or female.

By the way, before we become too happy regarding the unlamented death of American Patriarchy in literature, understand that celebrating the passing of something is one effective way of restoring or retaining it. The "Sopranos" can just as easily be interpreted as a desire for things "the way they were" as some sort of progressive social statement. The popularity of characters like Tony Soprano or Don Draper should give us some pause. Not to even mention someone like Jack Bauer (seriously, why wont "24" just go away already?). I'm not saying that fiction isnt questioning traditional social mores, since clearly it is, but it isnt necessarily a straight-up endorsement of feminism or social equality, either. Something more complex than that is happening.

From the Topher article: "...The strong ambivalence running throughout Scott’s piece emerges from the fact that he sees an intimate, even necessary connection between the decline of the straight white male’s stranglehold on the culture as a whole (which he views as all to the good) and the rise to dominance of a juvenile strain within popular culture in particular (which he likes a lot less). But even assuming that both of these things are going on, it’s not at all clear how much they have to do with one another. There is a difference between art that merely enacts a culture’s refusal to grow up—say, a Y.A. fantasy turned summer blockbuster marketed at adults—and art that engages thoughtfully with that refusal."

That really nails it, I think. More than one thing is going on at the same time. There is a fashionable turn toward juvenile escapism that reflects the dark and distrustful period we seem to be going through; while simultaneously there is a questioning of traditional social authority that doesn't necessarily propose a simple replacement for it. Overlaid on top of all that, there is the trend away from works focused on the emotional nuances of internally-focused characters dealing with unresolvable problems and toward the actions of people who are seen overcoming the challenges that face them (that is, away from Lit Fic and toward Genre).

That's why the issue of, say, gender equality isn't advanced very much by the plethora of action women one sees in heroic fiction these days; that's just escapism, and no one is treating those as serious works with very much to say about real life. The characters of Hermione or Katniss do, though. As does (for boys) someone like Greg Heffly. So things are changing, but in complicated and unpredictable ways.

edited 23rd Sep '14 8:54:51 AM by demarquis

You're raising too many points and in too many ambiguous terms. Can you narrow down what you're saying to maybe two or three points phrased in a statement we can respond to, please?

Can we make a distinction between 'genre fiction', 'YA fiction', and 'work with little literary merit' here, yes? Sure, you can find that plenty enough, but that's hardly unique to genre or YA.

What you do find, I think, are different methods being employed for the most part. Less extended metaphor on caged birds and more 'let's explore a planet where men think women are unclean and scary and have made a one-gender society, and they have a secret crisis with their reproduction clinics!' (AKA, Lois Mc Master Bujold's novel 'Ethan of Athos').

'Ethan of Athos' may not have held up well, but it was written in 1986 and for it's time, it was hugely progressive making a gay man the hero of a Sci-Fi novel without making him a walking stereotype. Yes, in the time since then a lot of elements have been over used, but even so, at it's time, it was pretty much unheard of.