Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

I've seen it pointed out that one of the reasons for it is what you pointed out — Leon/Ada is basically a "relationship" where Ada's more or less the one whom the other half of the pairing is most enamored with. Or at least in head canon, because as I've said, Leon's infatuation with Ada is greatly overblown.

I think it's really a matter of who is an actor or a reactor. Male characters can be infatuated with an unreciprocating Dulcinea, but the man is still the viewpoint character trying to win her heart rather than a Satellite Love Interest.

So a while back I asked for examples of female rivals who tend to be one or two steps ahead of the protagonist.

And now I want to ask for examples of female rivals who have that Gary Oak or even Char Aznable energy against a male protagonist, in ANY genre.

Some basic criteria I'm asking for are:

1: Actually scores some victories against the protagonist to establish them as credible opponents.

2: Cocky and arrogant but able to back it up, maybe even better if the female rival has Badass Normal credentials like Char Aznable in the original Gundam series, maybe also be presented as just more elite and privileged than the male protagonist at least at first.

3: Remains rivals with the male protagonist, maybe they can get a bit more friendly, but they still have to be competing for a majority of the story. Can't defang them or anything early on. Rivalry has to be mutual as well, the guy shouldn't be able to dismiss a female rival for any reason and takes the competition seriously as well.

Again, it has to be specifically against a male protagonist. Last examples I asked for included female protagonists.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Feb 20th 2024 at 2:39:15 AM

I'd say look for examples of the Rival in the magical girl genre. Filter out the ones that are also in Dark Magical Girl and Faux Action Girl and then find the overlaps with Tsundere.

I'm too busy with my writing projects to help, but that could be a starting point if you are including female protagonists. I'd think female rivals to male M Cs in anime/manga are prolly too sparse to find, esp among mainstream works.

(that is itself an issue. But it also dovetails into the tendency to have women be portrayed as passive of supportive love interests or friends to men instead of confrontational rivals)

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Feb 19th 2024 at 10:51:46 AM

The only example I can think of is Franziska Von Karma from Ace Attorney she fits all three of my criteria.

For like one game. Then she's an ally but such is the fate of most main prosecutors in the series.

1: She actually does score some decisive arguments and dirty tricks to get some minor victories over Phoenix which does establish her as a credible rival after Miles.

2: Is arrogant, and condescending, but manages to back it up by being intelligent and doing fairly decently against Phoenix in trials. Is also portrayed as more elite and privileged than Phoenix but that comes with the territory of being a prosecutor in the series.

3: She does remain rivals with Phoenix for most of the 2nd game before being replaced by Miles Edgeworth for the final case, and the circumstances of the trials means Phoenix HAS to take her seriously as a prosecutor or his clients are doomed.

And no, I can't use the magical girl genre as an example, sorry.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Feb 20th 2024 at 2:58:32 AM

Closest I can think of is Azula and Zuko's dynamic in A:tLA, maybe Zoro's relationship with Kuina in One Piece, but that was a childhood rivalry that never got resolved, because she died before Zoro could claim victory. Can't think a lot of mainstream examples with a male protagonist and a female main rival, and I think a lot of it has to still do with perceived gender dynamics in our current society that bleeds into our art. Usually with rivalries, the main rival is meant to be the dominant peer that the main character chases after (unlike say a champion character, that you see them as the static top of the hill that you reach).

A lot of media still has these gender dynamics where boys are peers to boys and girls are peers to girls, so same gender rivalries are common. And there is also still this trend of belief that in action oriented pursuits, the boy character will be the dominant force, because boys are considered better (again, not counting champions, because they're not peers), so if there is a different gender rivalry, the boy will be considered the superior peer.

I wouldn't count Franziska. She does display a level of competency and open-mindedness that puts Edgeworth to shame; Notably, where Edgeworth has limits of plausibility rooted in "realism" and is famously skeptical of the supernatural, Franzy casually proves the existence of ghosts mid-trial for the sake of supporting her case.

But getting a good punch in here and there doesn't count as "scoring some victories" in my book. Franzy, the only female prosecutor in the franchise, only gets to prosecute two and a half cases over the course of the entire series where other Prosecutors generally get 3-4. And that "half" is in a separate game entirely, where she was brought back just for the sake of letting Edgeworth tap-dance on her face as hard as Phoenix typically does.

Of note, the sequel trilogy has a character who can be compared to Franzy: Athena Cykes, the only playable female attorney in the franchise. Athena is the main character of her debut game, Dual Destinies, and makes a return appearance as part of the protagonist crew for its sequel Spirit of Justice.

Over the course of these two games, Athena is the actual playable character for two and a half cases. The "half" in this case happening because she just sucks so bad that Phoenix had to take over her first case and finish it in her place - The only time this has ever happened to any character ever. And none of which are the climactic finale to said debut game, which consists entirely of Phoenix rescuing her from her past.

She gets to actually be in the driver's seat for one case of the game about her, and then gets brought back for a filler plot in the sequel that has nothing to do with the game's story.

Ace Attorney has a wealth of female characters, but it generally prefers for them to be murderers, victims, side characters, and assistants to the boys who run the show.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 19th 2024 at 12:48:08 PM

She's not exactly the only playable female attorney; Mia is playable for two chapters.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Feb 19th 2024 at 1:14:40 AM

Oh yeah, that's true. Mia got two flashback cases in Trials and Tribulations from back when she was alive.

And man, is that game a minefield of gender representation. Throughout the entire original trilogy, it's been a bit awkward that the central plot of Ace Attorney centers around so much Fey Family drama. Phoenix's mentor was a Fey until she suddenly dropped dead one case into the first game, and Phoenix just sort of inherited her sister and her whole-ass plotline that runs through all three of the original games. Like. The entire trilogy is Mia's story but she's dead so Phoenix is the one who drives it in her place.

Between Mia and Athena, Phoenix does a lot of telling women's stories for them.

Which hits its apex in T&T. A game whose prosecutor is Mia's ex-... whatever he's supposed to be. It's not actually clear if he was Mia's boyfriend or if he just marked his territory on her because Mia's never given a chance to opine on the matter one way or the other. But his chief character motivation is, "Mia was MY MIA and you fucking LET HER DIE and a REAL MAN would take care of HIS WOMEN so I'm gonna FUCK YOU UP IN COURT, PHOENIX!"

Meanwhile, the main villain of the game is a Phoenix's "Duplicitous Women" snake of an ex-girlfriend, who was only ever with him so she could manipulate and murder him. Naturally, she became Mia's archnemesis in both of her two cases while Godot flirts with her, to establish context for when Phoenix has to take down both of these clowns.

T&T is the closest Ace Attorney ever gets to actually, seriously, for realsies Official Couple shipping its characters. And. It's wild, y'all.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 19th 2024 at 1:28:37 AM

My thought was Asuka Langley Soryu, but her relationship to Shinji is much more complicated than just "rival".

There's plenty of examples of female vs female rivalry of that nature, but less with guys. Azula also comes to mind. Katarina from League? She's the smug Rival to Talon, though the rivalry is pretty one-sided as Kat considers Talon more of a nuisance.

EDIT: Blaze was one of Sonic's many rivals, but Sonic's rivals always turn into his friends after a game or two and Blaze is pretty emotionally subdued, so ymmv if that one counts.

Edited by PhiSat on Feb 19th 2024 at 6:36:11 AM

Pokemon Scarlet and Violet had a female Rival in Nemona. She's a friendlier example than most, being motivated mainly by a desire for a worthy opponent to test her skills as a trainer.

She's also already the Champion. She's gotten bored since no one wants to challenge her. So she deliberately starts her Pokemon journey over from scratch right down to picking a Starter Pokemon with you and capturing and training a brand new team. She even picks the Starter that has a type disadvantage against your Starter just to make things more challenging for her.

Oh yeah, Nemona. She's awesome.

Though, given that the protagonist can be of either gender, I'm not sure if she meets the criteria for "female rival of a male protagonist".

But she certainly meets the criteria for a really cool female character and is easily one of the best rivals ever introduced to the Pokemon franchise. Naturally, the internet hates her guts.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 19th 2024 at 5:57:29 AM

Said game also has a female "bad guy" team leader in Penny. Though Team Star isn't really evil or even that bad.

Yeah Nemona and Team Star’s leader doesn’t count for my criteria.

There is Carmine but she doesn’t score any victory and is overshadowed by Kieran.

Remember, I'm asking for female rivals to a male protagonist as well, Pokemon games have player determined genders for the player characters, and Ash hasn't had a competent jerk female rival in the anime.

@ Phisat. Huh, I read Asuka up and she seems almost perfect for what I'm asking for. She just falls apart at the "Needs to be taken seriously by male protagonist and the competition has to be mutual.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Feb 19th 2024 at 10:28:49 PM

I haven't seen any internet hate for Nemona at all, really.

You can usually find more female rivals to male protagonists in works that aren't about fighting. Food Wars for example has a female rival in Erina Nakiri.

I remember people in this site complained that Nemona is too one note, but I disagree with that.

Nemona at least gets to play the "competent and couple of steps ahead of you as a rival" criteria that I don't see much in female characters in this kind of genre, but she's disqualified because of the other criteria I asked for.

How many women actually get to play the role of a rival who is several steps ahead of the male protagonist, is more elite, wins any kind of victory to establish them as competent, and is taken seriously as a rival by the male protagonist. That's the question because if they ever play that role, it's usually against a female protagonist, not a male one.

I've read up on Azula, but she isn't Aang's rival, but Zuko's. So that gets her disqualified.

So by my own criteria, it's Franziska Von Karma who fits the most, and given the nature of how Ace Attorney works since you always have to keep winning, Franziska's ability to prove the supernatural exists among other arguments and tricks she pulls out DOES at least establish her as competent enough to be shown as a rival several steps ahead of Phoenix. It even helps she's been in law longer than Phoenix has.

People put up Azula specifically because of her relationship to Zuko. Zuko may not be THE protagonist of A:tLA, but many consider him the deuteragonist of the story. His story acts as a second throughline for the story, so if we consider female rivals for male characters, I consider that dynamic to be valid to what you're looking for. Like, if Goh in Pokémon Journeys had a female rival, I would consider it valid to this line of thought, even if it wasn't Ash, though I still think that Ash never got a female main rival to be a bit of a missed opportunity.

Edited by HeyMikey on Feb 19th 2024 at 7:05:34 AM

Okay fair enough then. So that's Franziska and Azula, do we have any other examples?

As for the Pokemon anime, yeah, it's a shame Ash never got a female jerk rival. I still remember thinking Casey would be his new rival and Gary Oak in Johto.

She didn't even make it to the Johto League.

Interestingly, Zuko and Azula's rivalry is never really resolved. Their Agni Kai was inconclusive — though Zuko seemed to hold the advantage throughout it — due to Azula targeting Katara with a lightning bolt and Zuko diving in front of it. It's ultimately Katara who stops Azula.

And the way it's framed is not triumphant the way you'd expect a protagonist finally beating their rival at something usually is. It's deeply uncomfortable and sad.

In the sequel comics, Zuko has long since stopped seeing Azula as his rival. He's tired of their Cain and Abel dynamic and just wants to have a healthy sibling relationship. But Azula's still not in the right state to accept that.

Edited by M84 on Feb 19th 2024 at 11:14:32 PM

I feel like there tends to be fewer jerk rivals in general with the only recent one that comes to mind being the Tekken 8 arcade quest and Old Republic Online having a few Sith rivals for a few arcs.

I suspect part of that at least for video games is tbe fact that a jerk has far less bite if they can't exactly win compared to a more amicable rival. Few games will let the rival win and let the plot move on and acknowledge that the outcome occurred.

He even commented on the fact that she appeared to be doing better in the mental wellness department rather than the fact that she was behind the plot as an antagonist in Smoke and Shadows.

Edited by Darthwyn on Feb 19th 2024 at 11:30:59 AM

"A rival several steps ahead of Phoenix" is an interesting way to describe a character who has never won a case in the entire series.

Gavin has 1 win against Phoenix, while Edgeworth has 3 separate W's; One against Phoenix, one against his mentor Mia, and one against Franziska, even. But of the only two and a half times Franziska has ever been allowed to enter court, she's been utterly humiliated every time.

Though she also appears as an antagonist in the Investigations games so that Edgeworth can make her look like a useless clown even more.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Feb 19th 2024 at 8:31:22 AM

I wonder if the Mortal Kombat games missed an opportunity by not making Frost and Takeda (the respective prodigies of Sub-Zero and Scorpion) rivals.

Several steps ahead in the sense that she's got more knowledge and experience than Phoenix, and generally knows more about the case because she's a prosecutor and has special advantages. Without her help in the final case, Phoenix would have lost, it should be noted. And she at least has the examples you cited to establish her as a credible rival.

And Gavin is a bad example because he only won against Phoenix because the latter was tricked into using forged evidence. At least Franziska is above that sort of cheating even if Gavin didn't know he was set up.

Miles also had a DRAW against Mia because of the accused committing suicide. That's not a win. He only won against Phoenix because he WANTED to lose.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Feb 20th 2024 at 12:34:34 AM

Frost's grudge is against Kuai Liang. She doesn't give a shit about the whole Scorpion vs. Sub-Zero conflict. Heck, Kuai wasn't involved in that either. The Sub-Zero Scorpion wanted dead was Bi Han, Kuai's elder brother.