Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

I also think that perhaps one of the problems with Cersei is that she was the first villain we were presented to, and the one who kickstarts the plot. I think people have had time to root their dislike for her more. Also, being a POV character, we can see more clearly her machinations and what she's doing to further her own power, even if indirectly, while other villains like Tywin and Littlefinger do their evil through middlemen, who receive the blame in and out of universe.

I haven't seen many discussions online about ASOIAF besides This Very Forum's, so I don't think I've seen what @Aprilla's post complains about. My personal opinion is: f*** the Boltons.

Also, if I remember well, Stannis wasn't supposed to be a villain. I mean, from what I've heard, in the series he's worse than a villain: he's stupid. And they made the younger Bolton into a Villain Sue?

I personally don't think the villain/good person binary is appropriate for a universe like ''Game of Thrones". Putting these characters on a fixed gradient is somewhat useful, but severely limited in terms of how these characters evolve and interact with one another. There's a related quote I like a lot about this concept:

“I think we need to move away from the premise that being a good person is a fixed, immutable characteristic, and shift towards seeing ‘being good’ as a practice. And it is a practice that we carry out by engaging with our imperfections.”

- Jay Smooth

Oh, sure. I didn't mean it in a binary way. I simplified my post when I made it, in many ways.

However, considering your complaint, I wonder how many of those people have a Black/White view of ASOIAF's characters...

I think a lot of Cersei hate has less to do with the morality of her actions, and more to do with the fact that, reading her point-of-view chapters, it's obvious to the reader that she's making incredibly bad decisions, while she remains bull-headedly oblivious to that fact.

Other characters make bad decisions, sure, but we usually find out something's a bad decision at the same time the characters do. That helps us relate to the characters, since their shock at how things went so wrong for them mirrors our own. Letting the audience know the characters are making a fatal mistake, long before the characters themselves realize that fact, tends to make the audience annoyed with the characters for not picking up on what, to us, seems so obvious.

I will be honest, the reason I hate Cersei is because of Joffrey, and how she would protect that little bastard who is by far the most irredeemable monster in the show.

When the point at which you are poisoned becomes one of the happiest moments in the show, you know there is a problem and no one should be defending you.

edited 29th Aug '15 3:16:26 PM by Imca

i pity cersei more than i dislike her, although i'm not really far into asoiaf atm (in the middle of book 2).

CERSEI DOESNT KNOW ANY BETTER!!!

As someone who is reading the books as well as enjoying the show, that is the whole point with her!

If you raise your daughter to be nothing but a glorified breeder and don't allow her to be educated,then keep ignoring her and fucking her over, she can turn into a Cersei.

I say "a" Cersei because she is not a real person. She is a viewpoint character being used to demonstrate social commentary.

Of course Cersei is problematic, embittered, and lost. Her father was Tywin "Never taking my armor off lest someone try to kill me" Lannister! He kept her stupid then filled her head with family pride and made her only role decorative.

Catlyn and Cersei are so much alike.

Of course they do dumb shit for their children. Their entire identity is built on them being mothers and their only worth is through the successes of their children.

And besides the fact that parents love their kids sometimes even when their children are flawed.

I think the shame walk was horrible because that still happens to women today. Not literally, but certainly that manifests in different ways in our world, hence why Cersei as a person is flawed thinking. Cersei as commentary and social observation is what characters like her are for.

If anything, some of the criticism of Cersei is coming in such a way it is flat out sexism, not conversation.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

How was Cersei uneducated? She seemed quite well-informed, even for a noble.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

She learned all her political knowledge by watching other people work. Her father never actually sat her down and taught her how to rule. She points this out multiple times in the book. She was taught how to sew and raise children while Jaime was taught how to fight and command armies.

What I found most disturbing about the shame walk is what it tell us about the society, it show us strait how how messed up it is, not just the method of punishment (which is strait up torturous), but also the why. Think of all the horrible things Cersei has done, all the terrible crimes she has committed, all the pain and suffering she's caused, then think about what she's being punished for in that scene, loving someone that society deemed it inappropriate for her to love.

edited 29th Aug '15 4:02:11 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

It was the only thing they had on the books and could prove in good faith.

Everything else was circumstantial or not technically illegal. Or done via a fall guy/proxy.

Kinda like how they got Al Capone for tax evasion.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

That.

Yes but they never even bring up the other stuff, they don't care, that's the thing, the only one of her crimes they care about is the one that shouldn't actually be a crime. They pretty much tortured a confession out of her, yet they only both going for a confession on that, not anything else. It's not getting Al Capone for tax evasion, it's like getting Al Capone for sodomy.

They don't care that she's a horrible person, they care that she broke their messed up oppressive religious cult's stupid rules.

edited 29th Aug '15 4:08:26 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Interesting you bring up sodomy. I had never thought of it like that before, but that kind of actually happened with Charles Hitchen- the guy was a corrupt thieftaker and criminal, but he was caught and put in the stocks for sodomy and was severely beaten there (possibly in a "sexual violence kind of way").

So yeah, it actually happened. Not the same thing as a Walk of Shame, but a good illustration of why mob justice is bad.

Hmmm... I'm not sure I completely agree with that... I mean, blkwtrbbt has a point. Speaking about society as a whole, I could agree with that, but I don't remember what rumours spread around about what crimes had Cersei actually committed. Maybe if I reread that bit I'd be sure. I'm just not sure how much you can say they hated her for reasons other than being a horrible person, as you said. I can see the clergy and the poorest strata of society, that possibly started following the faith more vehemently after the war, doing that. I think perhaps I'm seeing this too much from the POV character's... POV, instead of the in-book society's POV, because those (and hopefully the readers) know what Cersei has done, and hate her for those reasons.

@Gabrael: Interesting. I don't remember comparing Cersei and Catelyn that closely before. They indeed have some similarities, and very fundamental differences, at the same time.

Sure she does. She hates Robert for being a bad husband and a shitty king, but rather than try to work with him on either of those points, she ignores him as much as possible and eventually has him murdered. Then she steps into his place and proceeds to become the exact same sort of person that he was — except with the added bonus that she doesn't have a Hypercompetent Sidekick like Tywin to be her Hand because she's suspicious of competence, figuring that anyone who isn't an idiot will try to screw her over like she screwed Robert over. Meanwhile, while she did clearly love Joffery, she's so obsessed with power that she raised him to be hypersensitive about being given his due and taught him nothing about actually ruling — even in practical terms (ie, how to be an effective king), much less moral ones (ie, how to be a good king) — which leads to him being by far the worst ruler we see, in a series that's full of terrible rulers. (Granted, Robert certainly shares the responsibility for that, as he basically ignored Joffery entirely, resulting in the kid seeking out a variety of disastrous replacement father figures.)

Anyway, while some of Cerci's personality and character flaws are undoubtedly a result of her upbringing, I don't think you can legitimately claim that she doesn't know any better. She does everything that she does for personal, petty reasons, not because she wants to help anyone or anything other than herself and her children. If she was worried about the state of the kingdom and had Robert killed so she could take control and fix it, then I'd agree with the idea that she just didn't know any better.

Getting back to the main point vis-a-vis Male Roles vs Female Roles, Cerci's no better or worse than any number of other characters (male and and female both) in the series. Many, if not most, of ASOIAF's female characters do fall into the idea of Female Success is Family, but that's largely something pushed on them by the societies they live in, not something that GRRM himself seems to support. See characters like Brienne, who takes a traditionally male path through society, and doesn't worry about marriage or children at all, or Arianne Martell, who comes from a less patriarchal society and as such makes her own way through life in a similar fashion, just without abandoning her femininity entirely as Brienne is basically forced to.

edited 29th Aug '15 5:08:05 PM by NativeJovian

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

", but I find it off-putting that many people are primed on throwing Cersei under the bus while offering greater leniency to people like Stannis and Littlefinger"

Littlefinger lives in this nebolus bubble where we dont know enought about it to see the extence of his plan, from most part is "something,something, everything is going with my plan, something,something Catelyn" and Stannis have clear flaws that make him as responsable of his own action as everyone else.

And yeah, people sheer when Cersei is trap by the faith because finally her stupidity is caught with her....and them become disgust with the punishment, clearly the idea is to trap the reader between the horrific act and his hatred of her, strange...but cleaver

"Cersei isn't "worse" than Robert; she's on a par with him. The problem is that we don't get his inadequacies shoved in our faces as much thanks to, you know, him being dead"

Also because he really care about Ned and figure out how shitte king he have been, that make him pathetic figure you could pity, not so much with Cersei

Also, Cersei dosent care that much for her children: she beat Tomen and is clearly she seen him as a proxy so she can rule and rise Joffrey only with her concern about power.

Like I said it seen some people use the causes of Cersei behivor as a give her a more sympathic outlook, something that dosent happen to men in the show or books: nobody buy Littlefinger reasoning for what he does or how Stannis is blameless of his strain status with his family, again never a self-made villianess

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Cerci does quite clearly care for her children. She dotes on Joffery and is furious when it's suggested that Myrcella be betrothed to a Martell. She's harsh to Tommen, true, but mostly because she thinks he's weak — and knows that a weak king is an enormous target. When she gets mad at him for being "soft", it's ultimately Anger Born of Worry.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Tommen is an 8-year-old boy.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you

And more important, she like to think being stronger is be like Joffrey....

Yeah, we see how that end, dosent it?

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

Well, I never claimed that she was a good mother. Just that she loved her children.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Count me with the batch who have trouble not-wincing during Cersei scenes or have trouble finding reasons-excuses to justify her behavior-actions.

Disclaimer: I usually do not try to psycho-analyze Game of Throne characters.

For me, she seems primarily fueled by insecurity. Doesn't seem to have any friends. Contrast with Jaime who at least gets along with Tyrion. And she's like a polar opposite to the Tyrell ladies. The cool old lady kinda reminds me of one of my grandmothers.

She's not great at management, either of a kingdom, her family or just at relationships. I can't classify her attempts at villainy Grade A either, since they are more desperate than actually sound.

She's also too proud and superstitious. Basically, if she were a he - Cersei should be dead already. In fact, I probably have a bit of "White Knighting" going abouts when it comes to Cersei, cause if she was male - I'd probably be commenting - "you're still alive?" during Cersei scenes instead of just wincing.

Plants are aliens, and fungi are nanomachines.

I already question/comment that...

But yea, I agree it would be no diffrent if her gender was reversed, infact people would probaly want to lynch her more...

edited 29th Aug '15 9:43:37 PM by Imca

Cersei gets hated more than other villains I think, not so much for being female, as for being completely incompetent, not just as a ruler, but as a villain. Littlefinger's fans like to go on about how intelligent and calculating he is (before anybody asks I am not one of his fans, and will cheerfully provide you with my rant on just what a pathetic little brat he is). Same for Tywin's fans. Gregor Clegane is no genius, but he's physically terrifying, which is all the plot requires of him. Same with Ramsay "Villain Sue" Bolton. Cersei, conversely, is set-up as a political antagonist a la Littlefinger or Tywin and is really bad at it. Getting inside her head only makes it worse as we watch the parade of bad decisions that she makes, all while bragging about her own cleverness. She's a quintessential Smug Snake and that character type doesn't generally have a lot of fans.

Her bad choices can't just be written off as a result of her being a woman in a sexist society, either. Someone earlier made a comparison to Catelyn, but that doesn't really hold water. Catelyn made her fair share of mistakes certainly, but if Robb had listened to her, he'd probably still be alive. Hell, if the Baratheon brothers had listened to her, the Lannisters would all be dead, at the Wall, or rotting in a prison cell somewhere. Even when Catelyn makes mistakes, they're believable mistakes. Sure, trusting Littlefinger when he told her Tyrion tried to have Bran killed might have been an error, but it's the kind of error that I can understand somebody making; with the information that Catelyn had available, it seemed like a good idea. Conversely, Cersei appointing Aurane Waters (to pick one example) to her council was not just a stunningly bad idea, it was an obviously stunningly bad idea, and was clearly so at the time. Put more succinctly, when Catelyn complains about the men in the series discounting her advice based on her gender, I believe her. When Cersei does the same, I can't help but think "are you sure it has nothing to do with you being stupid?"

Catlyn was trained by her father, brother, and Ned. She was allowed to be part of the discussions on tactics, history, and analysis.

Cersei was not.

Catlyn was taught to be a good mother and a supportive wife by being more than a good incubator and had strong support from her people and the maesters and other experts of Winterfell as well as the Tullys.

Cersei did not have this support structure.

Again, Cersei is not a real person but she is an example of what happens when you treat a woman as a walking incubator then say because of her lastname she is better than everyone else.

Cersei was doomed to fail because she was never given the support or education to be a good ruler because she was a female. Had she been male, it would have been different.

Just like if John hadn't of been a bastard his lot would have been different.

Again, ASOIAF is ripe with social commentary of the consequences of restrictive social, gender, and economic roles and rules. It is about showing what happens when certain toxic structures and cultural traits are allowed to be normalized and encouraged.

I know women like Cersei. Women who have been taught their role is to be attractive and pleasing but not taught how to have any substance behind it. Add wealth and a famous last name, you have cases where someone can be enabled to continue to make devistating decisions.

Lindsay Lohan pops into my head immediately.

I know women like Sansa, Brieane, Ygrette, just as I know men like John, Ned, and even God forbid Ramsey.

These characters are not real but the systems that Martin fictionalized that contributed to their personality and perspectives being the way they are are very real in various forms.

That seems to be an innate quality about fantasy and science fiction. You are always pointing out some issue with society and I adore the genres for it.

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur