Mass Effect: Andromeda

The point of having to play Warrior Therapist for a bunch of crazies still stands. I might also add that a lot of DAI companions - and DA 2 also - are more about what they are than who they are. Again, I still like them. But what I like about Andromeda is that those guys are more about "who" than "what"

edited 30th Apr '17 7:13:51 PM by Beholderess

I've said it before, but I'd say the characters in ME:A are more defined by relationships with others than individual quirks or archetypes. Which can work well, building over time. Tali and Garrus benefited the most from this, out of Bioware's previous games, along with Joker and Anderson, though my favourite example of a relatively bland character who became more likable through familiarity (and also thanks to the actress's voice) was Dr Chakwas.

I think I might like the Tempest's crew more if I thought the voice acting was better. It feels a bit wooden, at times. Some extra stage direction and an extra take here and there would've helped.

Can I just say that I find Suvi to be a... I dunno, kinda forgettable character?

At least the salarian snarks and loves saying 'Ryderrrr' whenever I get back.

Suvi is just there, Vetra is almost as bad.

Gil though is the one who just plain should be shoved out the airlock, no one in any Bioware game is as bad as that ass hat.

In terms of the main party though, half the party just sucks while the other half is great. At least in DA:I most of the party was interesting.

edited 30th Apr '17 8:28:11 PM by Memers

I'm on the fence about the conflict between Gil and Kallo. I kinda feel like they're both being assholes.

Kallo is wrong for opposing progress for the sake of preserving the historical design. If Gil has ideas for how to make things work better, that's great! He should be free to pursue those ideas. Having a more efficient ship that runs smoother, faster, etc. is much more important than preserving the vision of its original architect.

Gil is wrong for doing these things without approval and, worse, in space. Rule number one of transportation: unless absolutely necessary, do not disassemble your vehicle while it is moving.

edited 30th Apr '17 8:38:54 PM by TobiasDrake

At the least when you side with Kallo, Gil is respectful of the captain. Kallo eventually recognizes areas of improvement and works with Gil to get it right. Kallo's attitude also doesn't actively compromise ship activity.

I actually recall some talk of how disappointing ME-2 loyalty missions were in that they were predominantly family issues and revenge on old partners. I kind of like Liam's loyalty mission in that it's a problem he gets himself into while a member of your team and trying to further the overall mission in a different way. Pretty much all other loyalty missions in Mass Effect are about resolving old baggage. In fact, most Andromeda loyalty missions are about more immediate problems that happen to involve some old baggage on the side.

I agree it's a nice change of pace, although as I understand it, the purpose of Mass Effect 2's loyalty missions are to make sure that your squadmates' are rid of their old baggage and don't have any distractions going forward, hence why they all delve into their past in some way.

I think this fits the whole "suicide mission" thing pretty well, whereas Andromeda's more about surviving in the new frontier, hence why all of the loyalty missions involve that in some way (albeit some more directly than others).

Eh? No. If you side with Kallo, Gil just does it again.

Seriously he should not be on that ship at all, I flat out loved screwing him out of gambling and would have thrown him out the airlock in a heartbeat if I could.

He is seriously worse than Presley and I hope he meets the same fate.

edited 30th Apr '17 11:28:02 PM by Memers

Hello, I'm just here to say that you absolutely do need to follow a guide to get loyalty in Inquisition. My proof? I exiled the Wardens abd was forever screwed out of Blackwall's arc. No matter how many Warden artifacts I found or Darkspawn I killed, my Approval with him never went high enough for him to open up about what a piece of shit he was so I could leave him in prison to rot.

This is why Dragon Age II had the best relationship mechanic ever in BW history. Just an objective fact. Those were real Loyalty Missions because those fuckers will turn on you unless you absolutely earn their adoration or respect.

edited 1st May '17 1:25:47 AM by Nikkolas

^^ That's what I did and it worked out pretty well. Gil becomes a team player and Kallo gets humbled a little.

^^^ The issue with ME 2 is the variety and not the reasons. The only person where their loyalty mission didn't directly involve settling things with family and/or an old partner was Jack. And when most of the loyalty mission story is, in story, shooting things until you reach the target character, the differences between them are marginal. Andromeda shows not just a variety in the types of missions but also in how those missions play out. Peebee ends up racing against Kalinda for the special Remnant artifact. Drack is just trying to solve an anti-Krogan conspiracy but you learn more about his relationship with Kesh and he gets some humbling words from Vorn. Jaal is looking to redeem Akksul. All of which have baggage with family or old partners but are more clever in execution.

edited 1st May '17 1:37:25 AM by KJMackley

ME 2's loyalty missions have more variety in tone and environment than ME:A's, and while they have more shooting, they have more content in general. The combat encounters tend to be much more choreographed, the arenas more deliberately laid out to provide multiple ways for the combat to flow depending on their positioning and loadout (class, squad, and skills).

Compare and contrast: the construction area of Garrus's LM feels quite different from the loading dock of Miranda's, despite both being industrial areas with a lot of the same in-game assets. Jacob's father's desert island planet looks nothing like the rest of the game, and between the audio logs and the NP Cs you meet along the way, it just feels a lot more like a living, breathing setting than any of ME:A's. Even with the mostly non-combat L Ms, for the amount of polish and dialogue in ME 2, including the many, varied opportunities for a timely interrupt, there's just no contest.

I'll admit Samara's LM is blatantly unfinished, but while none of ME:A's missions were that bad, I don't think any of them are as good as Mordin's, and that's not even getting into the recruitment missions. I really wish Bioware could get their focus back on making tight, linear combat sections, instead of these mediocre open worlds.

DA 2's party dynamics are the best Bioware's done. I really wish they'd try and implement some of those ideas again elsewhere. And I like that there's some challenge to getting these disparate personalities to work together. Having everyone agree and acquiesce by default is boring, really, and the characters feel that much more mechanical for it. There should be some lasting consequence to making decisions your companions don't agree with.

edited 1st May '17 3:09:26 AM by Unsung

Blackwall is like the easiest to raise favor with in the game, Just fight darkspawn, each pack gets you a 'slightly approves'. And you don't need a guide for that, he is a warden and that is what he lives for.

Interesting, he straight up disobeyed orders in my game leading to another confrontation and then it was like it never happen.

Did you miss what I said about how nothing you do with Blackwall matters if you make one choice? (exiling the Wardens)

edited 1st May '17 2:25:53 AM by Nikkolas

That's a fair point - 2 probably has at least one too many that deal in someway with parental figures, be they your squadmates' or your squadmates (that apostrophe is important). I will argue, however, that it's a good idea to have somebody representing the character's past - even Jack had that guy who was a test subject like her.

That said, I think I also have to agree that Andromeda's loyalty missions don't quite reach the highs of 2's - things feel less tense than stuff like Mordin angrily confronting his former student (and possibly killing him) or Garrus lining up a shot on Sidonis only for you to come between them. Not to mention, they're all pretty uniformly combat missions - nothing like Thane's or Samara's (unfinished as the latter might have been), nor do I recall any extended dialogue and roleplaying stuff to go with them like Tali's or Kasumi's (although granted, DLC missions strike me as something that can feasibly deviate from normal gameplay). They do tend to have their unique elements - like the gravity making the ship all weird in Liam's or the sabotage stuff in Vetra's - but I don't think they're pushed nearly as far as they could have been.

Blackwall in general is something of a "for great justice" kind of guy - he strikes me as liking heroes that go charging into battle and fighting the good fight, and also believes quite strongly in redemption. All of which makes sense, considering what you learn about him.

I mean, if you wanted to unlock that quest, I think you ought to have realized that he wouldn't be happy about that choice.

In any case, looking the quest up gives me nothing to suggest that picking that option is enough to permanently lock you out of it. I guess you just didn't quite get his approval high enough to make up the difference?

edited 1st May '17 2:45:04 AM by KarkatTheDalek

What are you talking about? Even when I exiled the Wardens in one of my save states, there was still the option to tell Cullen to just let Blackwall rot in Val Royeaux. Either way there's no option of killing him if you judge him yourself; it'll always be pardon, actually make him a Warden or press him into servitude for the Inquisition.

That's possible but if doing his entire quest for him and also getting bonus points from killing Darkspawn wasn't enough to make up the difference, it's virtually impossible to "fix" things.

It's not like I got Greatly Disapproves from him every conversation. I was nice to him and even followed a guide to get Approval from him. Still wasn't enough to make up for exiling t he Wardens.

I never finished his arc at all because I couldn't get the final scene to trigger.

edited 1st May '17 2:46:38 AM by Nikkolas

and I think he's saying that if you don't boost his approval enough before Adamant, it might be low enough that he'll never go off to face the music as Rainier in the first place, locking you out of his arc.

Which is frustrating, sure, but I think it's part of games like this. Some content should require you to work for it. I think as mentioned you can grind darkspawn mobs until you get Blackwall's approval up high enough, if you really want to see it in your game. Doesn't sound much like you much cared for Blackwall, though, so does it really matter?

Of course, this could all be resolved by an alternate conclusion based on negative approval, which sounds like it's what you're getting at.

edited 1st May '17 3:08:43 AM by Unsung

From what I understand, you can get his approval low enough that he'll just leave and never come back.

Did you take him with you when you were collecting the Grey Warden artifacts? That will help a lot more than just delivering it to him, from the looks of things.

edited 1st May '17 2:55:15 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Can you finish his arc before the fortress?

But yes, that's exactly what I was going for. I don't like Blackwall but that shouldn't lock me out of content. Dragon Age II and also Knights of the Old Republic II have great systems in play wherein you don't have to b ea spineless Yes Man.

Your Character: Oh yes, that's great. I really agree with everything you say.

Actually Thinking: What a piece of shit.

But you don't say that. Because you naturally want to see all the game has to offer. And if you do say that, you're gonna get shit for it online. I know, because I kicked Morrigan's evil, petty ass out of my party first chance I got. Response? "Who are you to criticize her character when you saw none of her character arc?"

Which is honestly a valid point. I find Blackwall boring as dirt but I can't really speak about him unless I know about his real past. So, for the sake of knowing as much as possible, I have to override my desire to roleplay.

You don't have to do that in DA 2. I've seen it. Many people found it cathartic to have their Hawke tell Anders and Merrill to stop being shits.

Yes I did take him with me. As I said, I followed a guide to try and max out his approval.

edited 1st May '17 2:56:51 AM by Nikkolas

I'm pretty sure you can't bring Thom Rainier to Adamant. I think I would have tried that if you could. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I didn't always love how binary the choices were in KOTOR or Jade Empire, but I did like that your party members would actually call you out on your Dark Side ways, even if it was a day late and dollar short to finally grow a spine. Part of what DA 2 has working for it is that it all takes place in the one city, so these people are there, living their lives, regardless of whether you're dragging them around on your adventures or not. Being able to bring back the surviving Hawke twin if they're in the Wardens, Templars, or Circle was a fantastic touch, as was the difference in how they treated you— Bethany's coldness if she became a Warden is a great gut-punch just in that letter she sends you, and as for when she shows up in the DLC... It's little moments like those that give your RP decisions weight.

ME:A doesn't make a great case for itself by leaving so much to be resolved in DLC or sequels. Some things should be finished here and now, and not just the last-minute reveals that only open the door to more questions.

edited 1st May '17 3:09:59 AM by Unsung

You cannot - it can only be attempted after both "Wicked Eyes, Wicked Hearts" and "Here Lies the Abyss" have been completed.

(Side note: love Inquisition's main quest names. Invoking the Chant of Light for them really gives them a mythic quality, and it's appropriate for a game that puts so much emphasis on the Chantry and faith as a whole.)

Hmm...I presume that this guide provided a way to both exile the Wardens and complete his quest? I have a hard time believing that they're just wrong...

Are you sure you did everything listed here under "Acquisition"?

It's been a while but as I recall, I exiled the Wardens and then, when the endgame was coming up and nothing was happening with Blackwall, I looked up how to get approval with him. I didn't typically follow a guide. I wanted my playthrough to be "organic" ya know? But nothing was happening even after I followed their advice. I had a save right before the Nightmare boss so Ijust endd up loading that up. I remember distinctly that I didn't have to do anything extra when I recruited the Wardens. After recruiting the Wardens in this Alternate Universe, Blackwall immediately opened up to me. No need to fight Darkspawn or find Warden crap.

i just remembered you can't even SEE Approval ratings in that game. That's dumb.

All this discussion about the places you should go with Blackwall in the active party kind of illustrates my point about loyalty being Guide Dang It! :)

Anyway, it is getting off-topic. Thing is, Andromeda does not have that

An unrelated question - can anybody think of any possible negative consequences of taking the Primus' deal? Because right now I can't see any, and it worries me

Could cause friction with the angara if they learn that the humans made an alliance with the kett to get their fancy new homeworld.

I wouldn't call it alliance - it did not cause us to do anything that we won't have otherwise. Which is too good to be true (and yes, of course I took the deal :) ) so I just wonder how could it possibly bites us in the you know what down the road