The philosophy thread general discussion

That's not how I do things. I'm not always sure if I actually feel empathy towards everyone regardless of if they're "worthy" of it or not, or if I just force myself to act as if I do for whatever reason, but I think I'm just opposed to the idea of suffering as a concept.

Most humanists I've talked with would be okay with expanding "human" to "sapient being" or something similar if it becomes relevant.

edited 29th May '18 5:25:36 PM by Corvidae

I wonder about what effect sentient aliens will have on ethics.

All other things equal, would it be okay to value your own species over another? Without any other sentient species it’s pure speculation what that interaction would be like. “Humanity” might have to be expanded.

Well, for example, a murderer isn’t promoting human flourishing so it’s okay to value them less. That’s the way I understand it, at least.

edited 29th May '18 5:26:18 PM by archonspeaks

What's about unethical experiments if they give some benefits?

Some animals are as smart as human babies, so we can do what we want with animals?

edited 29th May '18 6:07:16 PM by KazuyaProta

Simply put, I value humans more than animals. I don't see that position changing until an animal can engage me in conversation to demonstrate that it's sapient and able to stand up for its own rights. For example, I love my cat, but if I have to pick between my wife and son or my cat, little Kuro is going to lose that contest.

Given the luxury of choice, I will advocate for humane treatment of animals (preventing unnecessary suffering, rejecting outright cruelty) because it makes me feel better, not because I think they deserve equal moral standing.

Much along that same line of thought, if sapient aliens discover Earth before we discover them, I very much doubt we'll be in a position to have any particular say about the morality of the situation. One of two situations is likely to pertain:

• We're separated by so much distance and time that questions of comparative morality will remain forever academic.
• They're so much more advanced than us that we stand approximately the chance of ants in a terrarium.

edited 29th May '18 8:35:45 PM by Fighteer

Just because I support animal cruelty laws doesn't mean I'm going to consider animals to be equal to humans. I'm in no hurry to grant human rights to sea cucumbers.

Nobody is saying that they're 100% equal. But they ideally given some rights given their awareness for species.

I'm not vegan, but I'm 100% willing to admit that they have a more moral lifestyle than me and my meat eating

Sea Cucumbers are pretty low in the scale. Dolphins, the smartest monkeys and Pigs is where the question gets tricky

edited 29th May '18 8:47:33 PM by KazuyaProta

You're the one who brought up that some animals are as smart as human babies.

And let's not go around spreading the "meat eating is evil" bullshit.

edited 29th May '18 8:46:23 PM by M84

Even the most intelligent animals aren’t treated anywhere near the same as a human child.

Also, I don’t really consider a vegan lifestyle “more moral”. That seems like an odd judgement to me, at least.

Thing is...meat eating is actually quite evil, mainly due to the fact that farm factories are awful places in general (strangely, the act of killing itself is pretty much the worst part).

Being common don't means that it don't have moral factors in it. There a lot of awful stuff that was considered normal.

Now, Meat eating is far from a Moral Event Horizon and don't turns you into a bad person (I eat meat) but saying that is mildly immoral...yeah. It is

By eating meat, you're supporting those factories

edited 29th May '18 8:52:52 PM by KazuyaProta

That doesn't make meat eating evil. That's just an argument for more free range farming.

And by your logic, everything we do is evil because practically everything is connected to something shitty.

I'm just so damn sick of people calling for me to go to Hell just because I eat burgers and steaks.

That's also ignoring the practical reality of most people not being able to afford free range meat and fresh veggies.

edited 29th May '18 8:58:41 PM by M84

That reeks of the “no ethical consumption under capitalism” argument, which I personally find a little hyperbolic.

Plus, it’s very easy to not support factory farms these days. I don’t eat processed foods (sorry frozen chicken nuggets, I used to love you) and make sure when buying meat to only buy from free range companies.

I go free range too when I can, but it's easier since my family has plenty of disposable income. Although to be honest, I always preferred it even before I was aware of the ethical issues simply because it tasted better.

But yeah, trying to say "meat eating is evil" on the basis of factory farming is bullshit. You can make an argument that factory farming is evil, but not meat eating in general.

Now eating certain specific things could be considered evil because there is no humane way to prepare them. Foie gras for example. I used to enjoy foie gras, but I can't in good conscience eat it anymore after I found out the full details of how it's produced.

edited 29th May '18 9:06:03 PM by M84

I’m lucky to live in an area where actual farms are plentiful, my town has a butchers and I know the stuff I buy there is free range because I can see said ranges while I’m driving to work.

I understand not everyone is able to do that though, but on the other side of the coin a healthy vegan lifestyle is essentially impossible for people without access to high-end grocery stores as well. If you’re living below the poverty line, processed meats are one of the cheapest ways to get good protein.

Which is one major reason I hate vegan moral grandstanding. It's such a privileged way of thinking. Not everyone can afford to shop at fucking Whole Foods.

edited 29th May '18 9:12:53 PM by M84

While "judging" the ones that can't afford the vegan life is certainly bad, I'm obviously not including them. I'm talking about the people that can do it but doesn't.

edited 29th May '18 9:20:39 PM by KazuyaProta

No it was not. You flat out said that meat eating is evil. You did not acknowledge the simple reality that not everyone has other options in your earlier posts.

edited 29th May '18 9:21:36 PM by M84

Doing something bad=/= deliberately choosing doing=/= being a evil person.

Morality is a scale.

Even then, I don't particularly see anything wrong with choosing to eat meat. Supporting factory farming despite having the means to do otherwise, maybe. Living creatures should obviously be treated as humanely as possible, but at the end of the day they aren't humans.

The idea that veganism is more moral also overlooks the animal suffering caused by farming as well. Which is really worse, to eat a cow who was raised and then killed humanely, or to eat a vegan product grown in a field that necessitated the deaths of hundreds of animals via pesticides and habitat destruction?

Framing veganism as "more moral" just doesn't really ring true for me.

edited 29th May '18 9:29:13 PM by archonspeaks

TBF, you were the one who stated "meat eating is actually quite evil" in your above post (#5634). So I don't think I'm misrepresenting what you said.

There is that too. Farming is pretty destructive, regardless of whether it's raising animals or crops.

edited 29th May '18 9:31:43 PM by M84

Well, with meat eating I would quote Genesis 9:3 for why I don't think it's intrinsically evil. For all other purposes, meat contains a lot of nutrients that help a person be healthy and is super-yummy.

For mankind in general, it's not realistic to feed all humanity using only plants. Animals can turn plants we can't eat into food that we can eat.

One aspect of meat eating I do consider immoral is not eating the offal. The organs and such. It seems like such a waste, and I hate wasting food. Particularly since organ meat has a lot of vitamins in it.

Granted, my family roots are from a culture whose cuisine includes dishes with organ meat. You ever had intestines? They're good eating.

edited 29th May '18 9:46:54 PM by M84

It makes sense not to eat offal due to sanitary reasons, because of BSE and because the muscles don't contain as much (and as easily disposed of) parasites as the cattle organs do. But it's more a matter of putting more effort into the sanitary control and cattle farming techniques. It's still wasteful not to eat offal on principle.

And chances are any organ meat that actually makes it to market is probably okay to eat anyway.

Offal is severely underrated IMHO. Lungs, liver, intestines...heck, I've eaten cock testicles too. All good eating. Still haven't had Prairie Oysters yet, though.

edited 29th May '18 10:17:46 PM by M84

But the creatures that died because crops are mostly insects and plants who are mostly non-aware.

Eating meat is genuinely a moral negative/evil action. Is far from being as bad as harming a human being, but Is still bad in some level.

Someone who eats meat because they have no other choice is still doing something bad, but given that they have no actual choice, you can’t judge thet.

Also, yeab, Organs are pretty underrated

edited 30th May '18 3:42:09 AM by KazuyaProta

...You are aware that it's not just insects who are killed due to farming right? Where exactly do you think the native wildlife that is displaced by farming goes? You think they get moved to nice condos or something? Then there's the irrigation.

And all of those plants and insects you think don't matter? They are part of the food chain in those areas. So animals go hungry and die.

Farming is pretty much a real life from of Hostile Terraforming in the perspective of local fauna.

edited 30th May '18 3:44:57 AM by M84