There's no proof and it's not mentioned in the game but this isn't a trial and it's just a video game.
So really it's up to the player's interpretation.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
it's a living
Yes, exactly. You can believe what you want, but there's no hard proof of any of what you've chosen to believe. Which is, y'know, fine. It's just a matter of opinion, which is what I've been saying all along.
Different topic: which martial arts would you have liked to see implemented as an additional style?
I personally would have liked some variation of mantis. For all that so many kung fu movies use it either for the main character or for the villain or the miniboss, I find it odd that it doesn't show up anywhere.
Some form of xingyi would have been welcome as well.
I'd like bagua, but i'm not sure how it would be implemented.
On the weapons side, I kinda wish there would be some kind of staff that actually uses the sweeping movement that actual staff forms are known for. I was immensely disappointed my first playthrough when i picked the staff thinking that I'd sweep aside a thousand armies only to find that all I can do is poke poke poke at one guy. I think some kind of pudao/guandao weapon would be pretty cool.
And yet, despite my enthusiasm for it in real life, I probably would get bored with a bajiquan-based style. Mainly because I think due to limited reference pools, it's almost certain that the fast attack would be the opening rushing elbow from the first form, the area attack would be a foot stomp, and the power attack would be a shoulder check.
Old thread and all, but I just did an overview of the game recently. And I found the Open Palm Path vs Closed Fist Path, sloppy.
Like, the game tries to say that OP isn't "good" but about the status quo and harmony while CF isn't "evil" but rejecting the chains of the status quo and struggle. In practice, much OP acts are being a nice boy who does nice things while CF is kicking babies. Going full CF even makes your shadow wiggle around (real subtle).
Not helping is how the situation where you bind Death's Hand has to make you go "Mwahaha Ima enslave you all." You are given no options to say that Death's Hand will be bound so that he can atone for his actions (which actually happens in his OP epilogue) or even so that once his final death comes he won't be damned for helping torture a goddess.
Yet another situation that seems forced to make the player go Mwahaha Ima Meanie is where you corrupt the Water Dragon's blood. It's never really told what stops you from just tainting it with the Lotus Assassins' blood. You aren't even given the option to ask and be refused.
If the moral system from Mass Effect suffered from confusion/lack of direction on how Paragon and Renegade were characterized then Jade Empire's suffered from being too undercooked.
Edited by Maljen on Dec 31st 2019 at 7:03:12 AM
Disasturbator
Jade Empire has terrible controls from being a console port,also the spirit plane sections remind me of flappy bird and not in a good way
New theme music also a box
Jade Empire and Mass Effect morality all suffered from Bioware writers just not being that good at writing morality systems that are sufficiently distinct from their own morality which in turn was a product of the cultural environment they grew up in.
This is why not only is Open Palm just generic good guy for the most part, but the actually most Closed Fist choice for that slaver sidequest isn't the one that gets you the Closed Fist exclusive style.
And also why Renegade quickly degenerated from "alternate morality system to Paragon that could have used a few better tweaks" in ME 1 to "colossal dickasaurus" in 2 and beyond.
Honestly, I think that the main issues with Closed Fist are the Disappointing Last Level and Last-Second Ending Choice. Throughout most of the game, CF is actually a very interesting path. While I agree that you get the wrong scroll for being really Closed Fist in that choice, you have to admit that "fight for your freedom or be his slave!" was totally badass. You can do the same thing in the Assassin HQ, and I also liked the case where you could sabotage the dam, then tell the Captain who hired you in Tien's Landing.
...and then you got the rigged choices with regard to Death's Hand and the Water Dragon, which turn OP/CF into a clumsy good-evil binary, whether or not that has anything to do with the philosophies. Blech.
The other problem with the Water Dragon choice, of course, is that you can't be a totalitarian Open Palm - that concept is limited to the Big Bad. An OP Spirit Monk is a humble Nice Guy rather than a Knight Templar enforcer of Heaven's will.
I have maintained since I played JE that the choice with the Water Dragon is an excellent bit of nuance. You can characterize your Spirit Monk all game as a Humanist who believes the reins of history should be in the hands of man.
And that is exactly what CF is.
The Water Dragon tells you right before this that the Jade Empire was destined to witehr and die. Only the Sun Brothers' actions saved it.
"I marvel at the mind that came up with this. To cast his gaze so far above his station, to his own makers, is...admirable."
Demon or no, he's not wrong. The hierarchy in JE is very clear. Man's station is below the gods, to serve them and their whims.
Dawn Star: The havens have manipulated us for too long.
Please note I fully recognize many counterarguments to all of this. But he fact there even is a very good moral justification for this act makes it quite unique for Bio Ware's big final choices.
The choice to bind the Water Dragon is emblematic of a recurring motif throughout Chinese culture and legend, that of 人定胜天, or "Man Inevitably Triumphs Over Heaven". It's actually the choice that most accurately reflects actual Chinese culture on such matters. A god that will not serve you is no god, or at the least, unworthy of worship.
I think there's a New Age understanding of Daoism as this "peaceful, in tune with nature" philosophy, and Confucianism as this "peaceful, harmonious society" philosophy, and Buddhism as this "peaceful, pacifist" philosophy, which combined with Western backlash against its own over-exploitation of natural resources, causes there to be this theme-park-version of Chinese culture as being accepting of Heaven's will, which is also how we get this erroneous view of how the Mandate of Heaven actually works which was discussed some pages back. In any case, if you actually read Chinese myths, none of them have been about accepting your lot as handed down by heaven.
As one of the top rated Zhihu (question-and-answer site similar to Quora) answers regarding "What does it mean that China has no religion" stated, and I have translated
:
When the sky cracked, we melted the rocks to mend the gaps.
When the rivers flooded, we did not ask the prophets for a way to escape. Instead we dug drains and channels to manage the waters.
When the plagues came, we did not ask for miracles to save us. Instead we tested every herbs and grass we could find on our own bodies until we found a cure.
When the Eastern Sea drowned us in its swells, we filled it with earth.
When the ten suns burned us with their rays, we shot all but one of them down.
Anyone who wants to be a passive participant to their own fate may choose to do so.
Anyone who wants to prostrate as a sacrificial lamb may choose to do so.
Anyone who wants to bend the knee to the son of Heaven may choose to do so.
Anyone who wants to concern themselves with the immaterial over the material, to care more about constructed idols than real humans, may choose to do so.
And everywhere in Creation, whether it is the Creation of Yahweh in the Book of Genesis or the creation of Pangu splitting the Cosmic Egg into Heaven and Earth with his axe, there are people who chose not to become slaves.
That is what our people hold sacred.
The Monkey King that everyone knows and loves is the one who stole an iron staff from the dragon king's palace and wreaked havoc in heaven, not the one who spent years escorting some monk on a journey to the west.
Edited by PRC4Eva on Jan 9th 2020 at 2:13:26 AM
Of course, none of those example involves torturing and enslaving intelligent being 
Not the first three, but shooting down the suns involved straight up killing them, and the Eastern Sea was also a sentient being that had its own personality and mind and such.
If the Water Dragon can offer no better reason for shutting off the water than "well we decided the Sun Dynasty's time was up", she deserved it.
In general nobody deserves enslavement and torture
That reminds me of how you can't give a CF case for killing the WD whether it's:
A. The empire is stagnant and should die or weaken so that struggle can build something great.
B. Men should be strong with their own power, not from a god's.
I've never heard of Confucianism described as peaceful. I mean, I like it, but it's very authoritarian in character.
Which, unfortunately, the Open Palm PC can't be.
Confucianism has been around longer than Christianity and was prominent in several East Asian countries. It's varieties are many but few of them stress peace. Harmony and obedience yes but not peace exactly.
That's more a stereotypical characterization of Buddhism. Which I think is fair and lines up with Buddhist teachings. But, again, been around forever, been everywhere forever, so there were tons of Buddhist fighters of all types who fought in wars and whatnot.
I think JE stresses the harmony of the world. You must be content with your situation if it is the natural way of things. Sometimes draughts will happen and you will die. You can't go and pillage the water you need from another land and make them all die of dehydration and starvation instead. Which is what the Sun Brothers did essentially.
Life comes and goes, good and bad. You just have to accept it. Compare it to the endless tales that warn against seeking immortality. That's the same basic theme. Life and death happen, just accept it.
As I said, the sides are both fair and make good arguments to my mind.
Edited by Nikkolas on Jan 20th 2020 at 1:18:09 AM
Oh, bother.
Are we all forgetting that the Emperor didn't just use the Water Dragon to end the drought? He also abused that power to grant himself immortality. Not to mention that enslaving the Water Dragon also led to fucking ghosts showing up and attacking the living due to being driven made by their predicament (which will lead to more ghosts showing up since the people who are killed also cannot pass on properly).
There really isn't a good argument to make in favor of keeping the Water Dragon trapped — keeping her trapped is very clearly making life worse for the people, not better. All it's doing is propping up an asshole with a god complex.
Edited by M84 on Jan 20th 2020 at 5:55:07 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Yep. You kill the Water Dragon you're essentially dooming the world.
Oh, bother.
Sort of. Killing her body allows her spirit to be set free, restoring the cycle. Enslaving her to serve you dooms the world while you become a god.
Edited by M84 on Jan 20th 2020 at 11:04:23 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Honestly, I like the Deliberate Values Dissonance of the fact the gods caused the drought to destroy the Empire.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
That's Chinese mythology for you. Celestial Bureaucracy.
Disasturbator
I was about to download this game again but then I saw the file size
6 gigs??
Christ
New theme music also a box
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Was it smaller or larger than you expected?
Edited by dragonfire5000 on Jan 20th 2020 at 3:34:46 AM
it's a living
Textures and file compression have both come a long way since 2005.
Disasturbator
> Was it smaller or larger than you expected?
Larger then I remembered,way larger
Ha,if anything they've gotten worse in my experience
Edited by Ultimatum on Jan 20th 2020 at 12:09:02 PM
New theme music also a box
Which of my statements do not meet the burden of proof? Or are we dropping the discussion about whether Mandate of Heaven is in play?
As the spirit monk who actually has some kind of intrinsic connection to Dirge and the Water Dragon, and who doesn't actually need the amulet to do stuff, I see no reason why I'm not the one who's better equipped to take over the Water Dragon's powers compared to Sun Li.
On a side note, I wonder who in the Headscratchers section was bugging about the pronunciation about the Suns' names. I was actually the second one to respond, but seriously, the pronunciation is much closer to "Sun" than "Soon" for both Mandarin and Cantonese.