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Views on the Status of Marriage
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Views on the Status of Marriage:

 226 Bonsai Forest, Mon, 24th Feb '14 8:57:23 AM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!
I hope this topic doesn't die again.

Has anyone read the articles by Rachel Held Evans? She's a liberal Evangelical (I realize that this sounds like an oxymoron, as it's different from what one expects, but that's actually true) whose views on gender roles are basically: Let people do what they're best at and figure out how to make their relationship work.

She's been married for 10 years so far, and she fights against strict gender-role worldviews.
 227 Le Garcon, Wed, 26th Feb '14 6:54:21 AM from Skadovsk Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Sounds all right to me
Oh really, when?
 228 Bonsai Forest, Wed, 26th Feb '14 6:59:10 AM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!
What do you mean?
 229 Le Garcon, Wed, 26th Feb '14 7:00:19 AM from Skadovsk Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Roles in relationships, child raising and so on should be determined by the individual person and what they're good at. Not any of this gender nonsense
Oh really, when?
 230 Bonsai Forest, Wed, 26th Feb '14 7:06:33 AM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!
Try telling that to the manosphere, the "alpha male" types, who are anal about gender roles. These are the idiots who complain "durr hurr American women are a mixture of men and women blah blah blah marry a Chinese wife because they're submissive and loyal herp derp"

In the comments section of one of Rachel Held Evans articles (I think something like "the legalism of gender roles" or something like that; her site is blocked at work so I can't find it, but it's called "Exhibit A" in another article that links to it), there are quite a few people saying that their marriages worked out because they figured out what they were good at and did it.

One person even said they knew a couple that was constantly talking about rules, where it was always "I do this because I'm the man, and you do this because you're the woman" and so on, and it looked so strange from outside. In this person's own marriage, their roles were determined simply by what they were good at, and it fell into place naturally.
 231 Tobias Drake, Wed, 26th Feb '14 9:04:51 AM from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Black Dragon
In fairness, that attitude exists on both sides of the gender spectrum. For every man that gripes about women not fulfilling their gender role and wants a woman who "knows her place", there is a woman griping about men not fulfilling their gender role and asking, "Where have all the REAL men gone?"

Both of these groups are actively reinforcing the Patriarchy.

edited 26th Feb '14 9:05:20 AM by TobiasDrake

 232 Bonsai Forest, Wed, 26th Feb '14 10:08:37 AM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!
Both groups probably see that as a good thing. Indeed, "MRAs" point to both of them as "proof" that we need to go back to The Way Things Were, even if such ways don't work for everyone, and had a lot of problems.
 233 Bonsai Forest, Sun, 9th Mar '14 6:08:18 AM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!
Okay, finally I got some more data on marriage that benefits the egalitarian view and puts to lie the desires of "alphas" and "MRAs".

A study from 1980 to 2000, that studied 2, 000 families over 20 years, and later interviewed 2, 100 additional families in 2000 looked at causes of divorce and a happy marriage. Social liberals will love (most of) their findings.

"And family life is more egalitarian in terms of who is making the decisions, " he adds. "Both husbands and wives are telling us this. In 1980, it was common for the husband to say he makes all the decisions. But when families reach decisions together, we've found, they're happier. Equality is good for a marriage. It's good for both husbands and wives. If the wife goes from a patriarchal marriage to an egalitarian one, she'll be much happier, much less likely to look for a way out. And in the long run, the husbands are happier too."

It also found that cohabitation is bad - but the research really suggests that it's bad because people who cohabitate first tend to drift into marriage without having thought about it ahead of time. That is, they are more likely to become married simply because "Why not?", but aren't compatible enough for that.

Also, divorce in a high-conflict family improves life for kids, to the point where they're almost as well off as kids from stable marriages. Divorce in a low-conflict family throws kids off-guard and can really screw them up. (I've seen it happen to my cousins, as per my aunt cheating on my uncle and then him divorcing her; there was no indication anything was wrong until the cheating was suddenly discovered)

Booth and Amato, on the other hand, think couples in these so-so marriages should think of the children first. "We do upset people, " Booth says, "because we advocate that attention needs to be paid to the children." And they have the data to back up their opinion. "The effect is much less if the divorce occurs when the child is in late adolescence, " Booth explains. "When they're out of the home, they're affected even less. Then they don't have to live through the divorce. They're not so likely to lose contact with one set of their relatives. They don't have to cut off contact with their father or mother.

And finally, here's a religious website that advocates equal roles in marriage, and they point to a TON of studies to back up their point. The studies are referenced in the bottom of the article.

A significant discovery was made in relation to marital satisfaction and role relationships. It discovered that (81%) of equalitarian (egalitarian) couples were happily married, while (82%) of couples where both spouses perceived their relationship as traditional (hierarchical) were mainly unhappy.

Traditional couple types experienced spousal abuse in 21% of marriages, a rate more than four times higher than in vitalized marriages. This study confirms what has been known by many marriage and family therapy professionals. That higher marital abuse exists in traditional marriages in comparison to equal or egalitarian marriages.

(...)

Wives, in traditional marriages, suffered significantly more depression and other mental disorders than men, working married women and unmarried women (Bernard 1982).

In traditional marriages, wives had been beaten at "a rate of more than 300 percent higher than for egalitarian marriages (Straus, Gelles and Steinmetz 1980)."

Violence is more likely to occur in homes where the husband has all the power and makes all the decisions than in home where spouses share decision making (L. Walker 1979).

Summary of Empirical Marriage Data

Extensive studies and research have been performed by marriage and family professionals, sociologists, and demographers. Over the last 50 years these studies reveal that significant numbers of egalitarian marriages are happy in comparison to traditional hierarchical marriages. A recent study quantified these results revealing that over 80% of egalitarian marriages are happy while less than 20% of traditional marriages can say the same. That represents over a 4:1 ratio in favor of egalitarian marriages. Spousal abuse continues to be more than 300 percent higher in traditional marriages than in egalitarian marriages.

These research studies accomplish the following: First, they effectively discredit any traditionalists’ notion that dismantling hierarchy destabilizes marriage and that the root problem in marriage is the unwillingness of each spouse to accept the role for which he or she was designed. Second, they prove that hierarchy actually destabilizes and harms marriages. Third, they provide objective data that egalitarian marriages produce the healthiest, happiest, most intimate, and stable of all marriage relationships with the least amount of spousal abuse.

I don't have time to go through them all, and many of the studies aren't online but are instead published in physical journals (who reads those anymore?), but if you guys want to browse around, I'd like to see what you find.

edited 9th Mar '14 6:08:37 AM by BonsaiForest

 234 Qeise, Mon, 10th Mar '14 1:39:45 PM from sqrt(-inf)/0 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass

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 235 Bonsai Forest, Mon, 10th Mar '14 1:46:11 PM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!

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 236 Achaemenid, Mon, 10th Mar '14 1:47:31 PM from Amager Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature

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 237 Le Garcon, Mon, 10th Mar '14 1:49:09 PM from Skadovsk Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker

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Oh really, when?
...can still bite

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 239 Kyler Thatch, Mon, 10th Mar '14 4:03:25 PM Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
literary masochist

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 240 JO Ey Joj O, Fri, 14th Mar '14 6:36:02 PM from The Magic Land Of Oz Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
Happy Labor Day!

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I saw joe hill
 241 Joesolo, Sat, 15th Mar '14 7:48:00 PM Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo

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 242 shimaspawn, Sat, 15th Mar '14 9:16:31 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk

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Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick

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 245 Zendervai, Tue, 18th Mar '14 6:12:21 PM from North Toronto Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Eccentric Dreamer

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Everyone is a little bit insane. It makes the world so much more interesting!

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 247 Zendervai, Tue, 18th Mar '14 6:38:54 PM from North Toronto Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
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 249 Bonsai Forest, Mon, 2nd Jun '14 8:00:31 AM from anywhere it rains
This tiny forest is where all the action is!

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