I see, "nationalisation of religious property" since 19th century. Surprised that that's still the case. I don't see how imposing a tax would solve the problem of declining numbers though.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I wish they would stop doing that. Science is a method, not a religion. Everyone uses it. If they really wanted to, they should give the funds to a philosophical/cultural atheist group. And atheism isn't mere "secularist" which is merely a nonpreference to religion; it's actively anti-religion. Simply funding a nonreligious organizing doesn't add up.
edited 24th Sep '12 1:21:15 PM by Trivialis
Is that cake frosting?
That looks like a jumble of random characters on my screen. What's its intended meaning?
Table flip 
Is that cake frosting?
Aaah, I see it now. Thanks! 
Engrish scholar
What are the benefits of being listed as believer? Because if none, problem is about churches that pushes to pay it. And that's an internal problem of the religious groups.
Space Wizard
My personal point of view has already been taken by the others here, so no reason to repeat.
Programming and surgery have a lot of things in common: Don't start removing colons until you know what you're doing.
Is that cake frosting?
Well, for example, is the BBC article essentially correct, or is there some sort of misunderstanding? (I'm hoping against hope for something like that, but to be honest I'm not counting much on it...)
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
KVLFON
In Poland — unless I am mistaken — it's like you can devote 1% of your tax to NGO of your choice, plus registered churches and other religious communities pay lower taxes. There's recently been a discussion about swapping these lowered taxes for something, like an institution of 0,7% religious tax, or allowing for the donation of 1% to churches, but so far nothing has actually been done.
"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"
I think you are somewhat misunderstanding the topic. As far as I know, you only have to pay the tax if you earn at least a certain amount of money and the tax depends on how much money you make. The Tax affects nobody below the middle class. I know two people who left the church because they didn't want to pay more money, although they could have easily afforded it. Why should they be allowed to visit the church, although they do nothing to finance it, especially if they are in a good financial position like the mentioned professor?
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
Gee, raising issues about christianity and money in germany. Because it turned our so well the last time the catholic church did that *coughluthercoughreformationcough*
Okay, joking aside. The catholic church has at the moment a really bad standing in germany, pedophilia scandals and other arrogance like in this instance. Many catholics seem to be pretty upset with the church and either leave it (like my father did, I am a evangelical myself.) and this is pretty symptomatic why they do it.
Sadly, they don't seem to get that this is not helping. They have essentially the attitude that people should be GLAD to be able to join them and save their souls, instead of working for it.
Ands just for the record, I do mean the church establishment with that.
"You can reply to this Message!"
Is that cake frosting?
As I said, if I believed the Church to be just a private organization, I wouldn't have a problem with it requiring a membership fee; but I believe that it is something higher, and I believe that it selling its services (because that's what this is about) is a betrayal of its calling.
edited 24th Sep '12 2:35:39 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
NOT THE BEES
I'd like to reiterate that a figure who's kind of important in our mythos is on the record completely flipping his shit, throwing tables, yelling loudly, and whipping dudes over this sort of thing. So yeah.
edited 24th Sep '12 2:39:53 PM by Pykrete
Space Wizard
"Whoever explains his exit from the church before the competent civil authority for whatever reason, violates the duty to maintain the communion with the church [...], and the obligation to make his or her financial contribution to the church, so that its mission may be fulfilled", says the decree. For anyone going to keep distance to the church, active participation in church life should be limited.
From the perspective of the Church are those who have resigned and do not pay taxes anymore, no longer automatically Catholic. They may not confess, celebrate the Eucharist, be godfather or accept ecclesiastical offices. Even a church funeral can be denied. Though different to before, they should not be automatically excommunicated.
edited 24th Sep '12 2:42:52 PM by Lock
Programming and surgery have a lot of things in common: Don't start removing colons until you know what you're doing.
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
And they WONDER they bleeding members?
Meh, as long as they're not forcing it on non-members, I don't see what the big deal is. Churches have been asking for/requiring donations since forever, even in the US.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Space Wizard
Another part:
Since 1990, there were more than 100000 resignations from the Catholic Church, in 2011 there were a total of 126488.
edited 24th Sep '12 2:52:40 PM by Lock
Programming and surgery have a lot of things in common: Don't start removing colons until you know what you're doing.
KVLFON
I was under an impression the tax is related to the act of apostasy. Meaning you have to leave the Church officially to be free of it. I guess it is not so.
edited 24th Sep '12 2:58:36 PM by lordGacek
"Atheism is the religion whose followers are easiest to troll"
Is that cake frosting?
Thanks, that's interesting. I am especially heartened by the statements according to which the current Pope has been an outspoken critic of this "Church Tax" situation.
I do not always agree with the Pope, but I believe him to be sincere, competent and able. I hope he'll be able to put a stop to this nonsense.
edited 24th Sep '12 2:58:46 PM by Carciofus
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
The Vatican approved the statement from the German Church, according to the BBC.
But yeah, since they're basically saying "pay up or you're not in God's good books anymore" (a big deal for yon Catholic folk) I'm having to agree with this being unethical bullshit.
And let us pray that come it may (As come it will for a' that)
Is that cake frosting?
"The Vatican" is not really as monolithic as people think.
Still, as far as it pertains to this particular issue, I believe that we are in agreement.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
Indiana Solo
Ditto.
I'm baaaaaaack
I have less of a problem with this than I would think, actually. I think that the Church has a right to withhold religious services from those who don't choose to be a part of its community, and the Catholic Church has traditionally had the right to collect tithes from its members (which historically meant everyone in a Catholic country; fortunately, that much is gone). In Germany, that right was never fully abrogated like it was in most countries.
I guess I'd be a lot quicker to condemn this if it were happening in America. And I definitely agree that the Italians have a better system for doing this than Germany does: everyone pays a social tax (eight permille), but they can pick the church (or the State) that it goes to.
edited 24th Sep '12 4:20:42 PM by Ramidel
Indiana Solo
The German system lets you choose too...
I believe this is a thought rather unusually relevant to this scenario...
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