16 oz. Soda Ban Approved By NYC Board of Health

That is such a bad mangling of the viewpoint, I don't know where to begin. I'm okay with people being too lazy and having a shitton of excuses for why they can't bear responsibility for their welfare.

But then why do I have to pay for it? Why do my taxes have to go to condoning people's irresponsibility? Why must my choices be limited because others can't behave responsibly?

That seems to be the part of this whole equation nobody wants to actually address.

edited 26th Mar '13 12:47:44 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

Because you don't get to pick and choose what your taxes are used for. You accept that they'll go into general revenue and be used for whatever the government decides to spend money on. You can't have your cake and eat it too: agree that people need support but refuse to be the person supporting them.

Surely you can understand this concept, Starship.

We can choose to ignore these people's problems and let them suffer. Cost: decline in overall productivity, extreme burdens on the emergency healthcare system. Benefit: You get to feel proud of yourself for sticking up for your principles.

We can choose to help educate them, provide them with medical care, income supports, etc. Cost: Redistribution of wealth. Benefit: Increased productivity, reduced overall healthcare burdens, and a generation of healthy, able adults.

Because people are stubborn, ignorant mules and some of us apparently think that's a peachy way to live.

edited 26th Mar '13 12:36:51 PM by Fighteer

Midget. It wasn't struck down by politicians. It was struck down by the people.

just like the soda ban

Politicians wanted to cut the amount of obesity and health problems and the common people fought for their right to eat whatever they want.

I am getting rather tired of repeating myself

My point was more that theres a large section of political and business interests who's best interests is to convince people "FREEDOM" is ythe most important goddamn thing. even if said freedom is to eat whatever they want because otherwise communism.

Oh contrare, my dear 'Teer. I can disagree with my taxes being wasted. It's called voting, writing my local reps, starting/signing petitions, and generally raising a fuss. That's the beauty of a democracy.

Which I believe everyone has been arguing for since this thread started. The problem is some people are saying "Help these poor folks," and others are saying "Help these poor folks be responsible folks who take agency in their own healthcare," at which point, cue one of a thousand excuses for why that just can't happen along with silly strawmen about "bootstrapping" and other such nonsense.

True. And apparently others of us think that that is not a sustainable way to maintain society and want people to be compelled to be more responsible, and it seems an uphill battle to get past the rhetoric and get people to see this point.

Midget, true. But I don't think that's as big an influence as people's selfish nature.

American's especially have a very strict culture of selective government involvement.

Its kind of a combo. People on the whole are selfish as shit.

businesses play to that.

See, I think that's part of the problem. We're brought to believe that junk food tastes good. We're brought to see that "tasty" means extremely salty/sweet and can't savor food with more subtle tastes. Most fruits are actually sweet, and same goes for some vegetables too (corn, bak choi, broccoli, etc).

We might need a rethink on what is tasty on a cultural level as well.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:28:09 PM by IraTheSquire

If we agree people are selfish, and we agree governments, and their Big Business suitors, play to that....why the hell is it wrong to suggest people start behaving in a less selfish manner and either choose to give up all rights to healthcare that we all have to pay for; or take steps to control their health?

Extremely true. Brussels sprouts with a touch of oil and salt and/or pepper is way better than some greasy salty McDonald's fry.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:28:35 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

because nobody agrees on what to do about it.

And I never said Big Government was the cause of the problem. I said politicians.

thats a longterm problem though. Its much harder to convince the tastebuds of a 29 year old that tomatillo sauce, guacamole or diced tomatos in a burrito are a good and tasty thing when theyve spent the last 28 being convinced the only good ingredients for a burrito tastewise are meat, beans, and cheese.

You gotta get em early or else it takes lots of retraining (I know this from experience). When I was a kid, I thought lettuce, rice, tomatoes (I still dont enjoy them much, but its mostly a texture issue, not a flavor issue, now) Onions, avocados, and tomatillos were all icky.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:33:26 PM by Midgetsnowman

Again, there's a lot of misinformation out there. Quite a few people believe that the "touch of oil and salt" you put on brussels sprouts make them horribly unhealthy.

Is that the case Midget, or is that nobody wants to face the proper way to handle it, because it would require a degree of responsibility on all our parts?

And I don't blame politicians. Politicians are almost literally puppets who'll tap and dance as their masters tugging on their strings dictate. Bloomberg is unconcerned about New York health, he simply wants to get a token reduction in calories so he can wave it around to stat-happy people and say he made a difference.

I don't deny the ban would have an effect. It's just extremely minimal compared to things like Michelle Obama's phys ed suggestions that would have 10 times the effect without the civil liberties violations.

Damn. That's true. (head-desk)

edited 26th Mar '13 1:36:10 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

Or saw one too many cartoons and childrens books as a kid decrying the brussels sprout (or celery stick, or peas) as vile devils devoid of flavors except yuck. I know I did. And its half the reason I'm still wary of greens I havent tried before.

See? there we go again maxima? You assume your method is right and we're all fucking morons.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:38:43 PM by Midgetsnowman

There are plenty of green vegetables other than peas, sprouts and celery (I actually dislike the last two. Peas depends). Broccoli, bak choi, Chinese cabbage, choi sim, etc. All of them tastes really nice in of themselves.

And let's not forget, spinach gives you strength.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:39:59 PM by IraTheSquire

OMFG, I'm not calling anyone a fucking moron. I'm saying we're a society that's bred to ignore the truth in favor of our own convenience and short-sightedness, and for God's sake, you agree!

I'm trying to say it's natural to want to attack the problem by going for the short gain and trying to simply restrict the thing. But the thing wasn't the problem, the damaged psyche that allows people to have unprotected sex/smoke three packs a day/not exercise/stuff themselves with high-fructose corn syrup IS the problem.

Yes, taxing the shit out of cigarettes had an impact, yes. But the oft-repeated messages about smoking dangers combined with education and tools to help people quit had a far greater impact.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, except that the First Lady's phys ed suggestions are going absolutely nowhere.

As I've said before, the soda ban is just a stopgap measure until something more comprehensive and effective is put into place.

Actually, I'd say that the most effective anti-smoking measure they did was banning tobacco companies from advertising on television and putting heavy restrictions on what they can and can't say in their print ads.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:42:11 PM by DrunkGirlfriend

I'm aware. Spinach, lettuce, sprouts, and broccoli I like. Stuff like Bok Choi and Choi sim I am 99% sure is impossible to get in a small town su8permarket.

and as said above, the problem with Michelle's ideas, while well meaning, is given she's a democrat politician's wife, half the people who desperately need her suggestionas, rural poor, ignore her as a wussy hippie liberal.

edited 26th Mar '13 1:43:23 PM by Midgetsnowman

Actually, that didn't do anything but help the tobacco companies. It didn't effect their sales at all and the fact that they spent less advertising made their profits soar. That's not exactly one to be proud of there.

Yeah, except that the First Lady's phys ed suggestions are going absolutely nowhere.

and as said above, the problem with Michelle's ideas, while well meaning, is given she's a democrat politician's wife, half the people who desperately need her suggestionas, rural poor, ignore her as a wussy hippie liberal.

Argh!

It depends on if we're talking about effective as "cutting into profits" or "less people start". While it didn't immediately affect their profit margins, the awareness campaigns wouldn't have worked nearly as well if the tobacco companies were still allowed to advertise like they had been.

It wasn't really effective on either front though. The education did more on that. As did a general culture of them being less socially acceptable. But actually studying the issue, removing their advertising did nothing to stop people from smoking or starting smoking and only helped profits.

I'd say honestly. the number one enemy in the fight to get people to eat healthy/ The school lunch.

I know cafeteria ladies are welll meaning. But the fact theyre making dishes out of institutional ingredients, for large quantities of people, means the average food quality of cafeteria food means your choices are "healthy, if disgusting gunk" or "pizza!"

Citizen: "These big corporations are preying on my psychological distress and social issues to try and get me to eat all this food I know is bad for me. I know I need to help myself but I just give up. No one is helping me. It's so hard. The corporation's lies are too tough even though I know their lies."

Government: "Okay, well how about we stop excessive portions from being an option. Oh and the first Lady wants to improve the diet and fitness options in schools to give your kids a fighting chance."

Citizen: "NO! Government you are invading my personal rights! How dare you limit my portions or try and give my child health screenings! That's not your damn business!"

Government: "..."

Citizen: "Oh and by the way, where is my cholesterol perscription and disability check?"

Pretty much.

What's so bad about pizza? It covers several food groups and kids need lots few energy because, they are kids and thus burning lots of energy.

edited 26th Mar '13 2:12:25 PM by Silasw