Pillars of Eternity

I also feel that the main campaign of POE suffers a bit from Kickstarter syndrome. The game was funded well, but when you're crowdfunding, you kind of have to build things as piecemeal as possible, to ensure that the game works at the most shoestring level and can afford to be missing bits and pieces that would, on the other hand, plausibly fit in as additions.

@ Eder getting you on the ship and them calling you captain

I get what they're going for. But they didn't quite explain that. I mean, ok, I guess Eder's using my money to fund the ship but that doesn't make me captain since Captain's aren't bought. The Steward said they chartered a boat which means to rent or reserve it, not bought outright. And Captains are also a rank of command. I'm in a coma. I can't give commands. So I'm not the captain. This could have been fixed simply by posthumously introducing a captain that dies in the wreck and leaves a vacancy. A bit more logical and you wouldn't need to change much.

The respect that I'm being given for being a potato for the entire voyage is also more than a little odd, but I'll toss it up to just moving the game along.

As for WHY we're on the ship, They never really mentioned 'Yeah, we needed to keep following the statue to keep you alive'. And I question how they figured that much out since I can't imagine Eder knowing. It just feels a bit... under explained in order to get you right into the action. Kinda Mass Effect 2-esque actually. Maybe the statue told us. Though I'm shocked she's here since I'd been told a bridge (Adra Statue) was dropped on her between games.

I wouldn't harp on it if it weren't among the first logical questions to ask when waking up here. "Why am I here? How did you find me? Why is he calling me captain when I couldn't tell you his name?"

Or maybe some dialogue skipped somewhere. idk. I noticed a few choices where I was deliberately early on trying to not say "Yeah, Eothas is stomping around" to contain the information and it seemed like it was a bit of a secret early on but it seems just everyone knows it's Eothas. Like he's some giant mormon spreading his gospel with every step? And I don't know how everyone knows. The worshipers mention that they've been radicalized by dreams from him and claim it's Eothas but I don't know why other people know it's him? If some cultists started worshiping Jonas Average-Man as the second coming of Jesus, I wouldn't start calling him Jesus. It felt like a distinction the first game was good about exploring; that no one was quite sure if Saint Waedwen WAS Eothas or just someone using his name or something else, that the sequel seems to just not acknowledge the uncertainty of.

But, on the whole, I'm enjoying Deadfire a bit more. Even if I still don't like the combat or inventory management. Bye-bye achievements... again...

Are you going to argue with the giant adra colossus stomping its way towards the Deadfire?

Heck, that's probably why Eothas used the colossus this time. He saw how people continued to doubt Waidwen even after Eothas gave him the power to smite people with spears of light.

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2020 at 7:15:01 PM

I know for a fact Eder mentions that the Watcher was getting weaker the further away Eothas got, which is why they followed him.

As for how they know he's Eothas - the opening cutscene shows that the Colossus is marking itself with Eothas's symbol, the radiant sun over three stars. Apparently everyone passed their Lore 0 check to recognize that while he was stomping through the forest.

Another part of it: Eothas is fairly slow while he's underwater. It seems some ships with crew and passengers have already seen him, and have managed to get ahead of him. The rumour is spreading and people are figuring it out. Plus the other gods know, and they're probably telling some of their priests, through cryptic dreams or otherwise.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 18th 2020 at 1:17:51 AM

I will say that, while I'm enjoying Deadfire so far, it does feel rather different from the first game. Many of the improvements are just that - it's especially interesting seeing the new real-time combat as a sort of hybrid between Infinity and the Divinity Original Sin engine - but I think I preferred the feel of the first game. The ambiguity of the Saint's War and the Godhammer were a big part of the intrigue of the setting, and chasing after Doctor Manhattan Eothas while the gods have family squabbles in your head is just different.

That, and the whole "welcome to Deadfire, pick a colonizer to lick the boots of, or you can pick the backwards Islanders if you prefer" feel is a bit, hm.

Well, the endgame does give you the option to side with amoral pirates who (if you go with the non-slavers at least) are arguably the least controversial choice - their endgame plan doesn't require you to do anything particularly horrible. It also allows you to just flip off everyone else and follow Eothas by yourself.

My perfect PoE game would look something like the main quest and factions of the first plus everything else of the second. I'm still holding out hope for that in a PoE III... but Obsidian has a knack for making games that leave me deeply unsatisfied in some important aspect. I think I'm on the periphery of their target audience.

Edited by Tarlonniel on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:44:57 PM

I mean, not so much lick the boots of. You can call them on their shit, try and fix it for them, try and steer them toward better solutions and cooperation up to a point. I'm generally happier when there's no glaringly right answer in these situations, and when the player can't magically solve every problem by the end. The way you fix things here is often just by virtue of being someone on the outside, and thus someone both sides will actually listen to and confide in, and if you don't abuse that, you really can make some positive strides, even if there is no one perfect solution where everyone leaves happy.

I did miss the atmosphere of the first game, but I just think the quest design and dialogue is better overall in the second? And I don't dislike what Deadfire does, even if it's different. The White March was really the sweet spot for me. The lore and sense of mystery were more enjoyable in the first game, but at the same time you can't totally return to that in any sequel, least of all after the particular twist the first game ends on. I would've liked to have known more of what became of the Doemenels and Crucible Knights, to what extent Dunryd Row and Brackenbury were able to rebuild, but the Principi, the Watershapers, what we learn about the Republics and Rauatai, those are all fine tradeoffs. They felt a little more alive if only because Deadfire as a whole feels a bit more organic and lived-in.

I really liked White March, it hit some of the beats I missed in the main game.

... holy butterballs, Unsung and I agree on something!

I didn't much care for 'Faction' aspect of the first game. The Crucible Knights are in-charge but ineffective and way over their head with the constructs idea. The Dozens seemingly are more in line with the actual citizenship... but are completely anti-intellectual. And the Domenels didn't get much from me because they're a crime syndicate and I don't much care for it.

I get where 'There shouldn't be a clear right/wrong answer' is coming from because is it really a choice if the others are illogical? But, at the same time, both sides an issue enough and none of them are good and actually going to solve anything so why should I care?

I actually think, aesthetically, POE 1 didn't lean into itself enough and went a little too typical fantasy setting. Namely, everyone cites the Dyrwood as kinda having an American feeling to it since they had a revolutionary war to claim independence and etc. Which places the Glanfathans in a Native American role. But, instead, they feel like typical fantasy village/city and a settlement of nature loving elves.

To look at another fantasy game that did similar, I think Greedfall leaned into the more Revolutionary era aesthetics a lot more and was a lot more memorable for it. Where as I really couldn't tell you many areas of the first game that particularly stood out to me except MAYBE the machines of Thaos from ancient Engwithan times.

And this is something I'm so far REALLY liking about Deadfire; there are a lot of aspects that are extremely atypical of fantasy/dnd settings. We have Inca, Aztec, and Maya mixed with Cuban and Caribbean colonization architecture while also going through jungles and humid swamps. It really stands out compared to a lot of other fantasy stories let alone video games. I can't think of too many video games besides Black Flag that hit the Golden Age of Piracy feeling. And that's not a dnd fantasy kinda game either.

I just met the Queen and got Maia in my party which is exciting. Kinda side-eying the bird a bit, but rangers I guess. The Prince didn't seem quite as hot-headed as I had expected and I'm surprised HE'S the one that suggests picking up Tekehu... who I'm told is a bit of a slut. I'm reading subtext here.~

One thing that I really liked about Deadfire compared to the first game is the way upgrading unique items works now. The fact that some gear have multiple upgrade paths and offer bonuses besides boring stat boosts is great.

^^ You don't really meet many Glanfathans until quite late in the game, and they're bit one-note. They kind of give lip service to this idea of being guardians, but beyond that it's a bit hard to a get a read on them. And I like Hiravias a lot as a character, but he's part of that problem — he doesn't really feel like anything other than the druid of the party. He's a goofball but not in any real specificity, culturally speaking. Unlike Eder, for instance. Hell, even Sagani, as unexpectedly normal though she is, talks about Naasitaq and it has a distinct sense of place that Eir Glanfath never really does.

^^^ Hah. Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 18th 2020 at 8:14:14 AM

I mean, ALL of the companions have that problem in different aspects. You dont get much sense of personality out of them besides their most immediate traits or their quest related ones. Heravias is sex + nature. Sagani is mother hunter. Grieving Mother is an empath + mother. Durance is... dogma and being an utter jackass. If they aren't about to have a one liner about one topic, its the other.

There really aren't many hidden depths to these characters which is unfortunate.

I think you could make that kind of sweeping generalization with the companions of any roleplaying game, and even then it's not quite true here — though you can't really see it without playing the game more than once, which I think is a complaint I made myself at the time. They're all seemingly fairly static characters, because they're all stuck in various ruts that they can't quite see their way out of. They're all at various crossroads in their lives, and your interactions with them change their endings dramatically, and in particular their final conversations with Thaos, which is where the characters are at their best. Most of them have multiple endings, in the vicinity of 3-6.

But they don't have very robust dialogue trees compared to other games in the genre, and that makes them feel comparatively flat.

I don't necessarily know that every character needs to have a surprising Hidden Depths reveal in every game, though. That starts to feel a bit gimmicky. Aloth, for instance, has several big secrets, but I don't really think that makes him feel any less flat, while Eder is pretty much exactly what he appears to be, but he's the best-written character in the game. Probably has to do with how much attention was given over the course of development.

I mean, yes, not every character has to have *hidden* depths but it doesn't feel like the game tries to give them a place in the story outside of their own little painted diorama in the game world. Hiravias exists in his quest. Sagani on her hunt for her former leader. Kana for his tablet. They don't exist outside of those quests really. I cannot tell you why Hiravias is a companion quest and not just a normal side-quest, or why that Orlan woman who needs to recover her loot from the sea-side is a side-quest instead of a companion quest. I don't know why half of them are here or what their existence in my party or in Caed Nua is really even like. I barely know what some of them think of each other since conversations seemed to kinda trigger only once in awhile for me.

I mean, this isn't a unique problem to Po E either since I had the same issue with Outer Worlds AND New Vegas. It actually feels like an Obsidian Problem really. Though they're still better than Skyrim/Fallout 4 who's companions are utterly interchangeable and just as stupid every time. And I think they're probably the hollowest romances I've seen in games too.

I know not every RPG character is fully fleshed out or super developed, but I do think they should contribute to the narrative in some interesting way. Dragon Age: Origins would be a fundamentally different game without Alistair and Morrigan. Solas being in your party for Inquisition changes most of the entire narrative the second time through. Miranda being in your crew feels like a natural extension of the narrative being present rather than 'Here's a person'. It's not a major AAA RPG but Unavowed's character's feel pretty good for the narrative to and different combinations actually change the area quest approaches too; one party member being a cop might have a gun or be able to get you into crime scenes while another might have magic or a deeply personal connection to the story.

I know "romances" are controversial and not always well done, but I do think it can at least make an otherwise more flat character come off a bit more dimensional since they actually have a part or can do something better in the narrative than just sit there. And it at least prompts the writers to maybe think a bit deeper about their characters too. Not always, but sometimes.

I think, even though they still have this problem, Durance and Grieving Mother come off a bit better since their quest actually is structured and paced around talking to them rather than Meet -> Location -> (Maybe second location) -> Quest Complete. Or Palleginia since her responses didn't feel quite so "I'm inserting some quip" and felt more supportive towards the conversation. Or at least the ones I remember. Like a subtle nod during the Animancy Trials or other things.

POE 2 seems to suffer less from this so far. Some are better than others but there have been more natural guides for the companions to join my party than the previous game.

I largely agree with you. I'm just saying I think it's at least partly the result of intentional design. But there is a bit of a tendency with Obsidian characters to keep themselves at a bit of a remove, if they're not either actively combative towards you or heavily traumatized. I don't know if that's a company culture thing or what. But it means you do tend to get a lot of characters like Kreia or Durance or the cast of Tyranny — villain companions — or Grieving Mother and... most of the other characters from Torment and The Sith Lords. Damaged people. Tormented souls.

Before Deadfire, Eder seemed like he was something of an exception to the rule. Then Deadfire seemed to move things in a direction that felt a bit more... Bioware-ish? Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. But it does seem like the pivot toward characters who are a bit more well-adjusted was something of a struggle, with some growing pains.

Admittedly, my memory of playing through Po E isn’t complete, but saying that the companions don’t tie into the main plot is the complete opposite of my experience. Each of them, as best as I recall, have something central to their conception of who they are be invalidated or called into question in some way, which is the same experience Thaos, Iora, and the player character’s preincarnation went through.

Also, purely subjective of course, but the slow pace made my player character feel a ‘’little’’ more grounded than most RP Gs. It still ultimately falls into the “no one in the setting could get anything done without the PC babysitting them” thing (really, every single person in the city ignored the undead creating machine? There wasn’t a sweep of the quarter after I was there, or any governmental decisions?), but for a while I had the illusion that this world didn’t work like that.

Edited by Novis on Aug 25th 2020 at 1:36:28 PM

That's more of a thematic connection as opposed to actually being connected to the plot.

That said, a couple characters do have motivations connected to the Hollowborn Crisis. There's Grieving Mother for one. Then there's Durance, who is partly responsible for it since he helped kill Waidwen / Eothas who was trying to stop it.

Yeah. The characters and their themes tie in very well with the ending and *its* themes, but I can't help but feel like they end up seeming fairly disconnected from the Hollowborn Crisis, the legacy of the Saint's War ie. Waidwen's Legacy, and the question of animancy in the Dyrwood. It's what gets you to that endgame, but most of the characters are about as removed from the situation as the Watcher. Even the characters from the area, Eder, Durance, Grieving Mother, and to a lesser extent Hiravias, are all so alienated that it's hard to get invested. Hell, even if you as a player are invested, the game doesn't give you a lot of chances to get close enough to express it. You're not really allowed to engage with the factions or their leaders on that level.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 25th 2020 at 5:56:17 AM

Exactly.

This is why I question less "Why are they here?" and more "Why are they a companion rather than just a side-quest?". They have thematic ties, but their characters and personalities have little interest in most of what's going on around them. Grieving Mother, as deeply as she's tied to the Legacy and Hollowborn, cannot meaningfully interact with anyone. Durance, for all he ties to the Saint's War, doesn't have ANY motive for the entire game except "Well, the plot told me to be here so here I am... whore".

While I like Eder when I'm in Gilded Vale and the pacing feels a lot tighter, he stops having anything to do as soon as I leave there. I can go to Raedric's Hold and complete that quest or do the quest in the Temple of Eothas and I feel like Eder has a history there or a motive to want to see that quest done, even if he doesn't talk all the time. After though, he wants you to go to read some record from Defiance Bay but... it didn't feel impactful and interesting? It didn't really go anywhere. I thought MAYBE the anti-climax was kinda the point; the brother is dead and learning his intents is an impossible quest, but the fact that the other characters' aren't always climactic either makes it feel... less the point.

To pull a Non-Bioware example, let's look at Greedfall. At the beginning, your first partner is Kurt, your royal bodyguard. I feel like I'm going on this adventure with a long time friend even if I just met him. Even when he has very very little to do around the half-way point of the game, him being around still feels like taking your childhood best friend (or lover if you romanced) on an adventure. Siora is one of the natives and has a vested interest in protecting her people and trying to build relations on the island. Petrus, despite seeming just some religious father, becomes kinda close to your paternal figure since he knew about your mother and knows the big secret about your birth and the island. Contrastingly, Vasco has NOTHING to do as soon as you get to the island and for the rest of the game so he feels kinda out of place for it; I don't know why he's here? And Aphra could have been a side-character in one of the major quests and very little would have to change.

Compared to games where I felt like my companions were family, friends, or at least extremely motivated to be here, Eternity's just felt like they were there and might as well have been paid hourly like mercs. I don't know why they follow me or stick around. I don't know why, say, Kana doesn't ask to just stick it out in Caed Nua and research while waiting for the next trip to the Endless Paths. Or why Durance follows my lead into a Dragon Cave of Certain Doom rather than ranting and raving at me every once in awhile that I come back to my tavern for a rest bonus.

Even Thaos at the end questions why these people are with The Watcher. He basically calls them all out as a bunch of losers who are only following The Watcher because they can't find meaning doing anything else.

I will admit that that's pretty much what happened - I like Kana, but I basically left him in charge of Caed Nua and picked him up once to check out Floor 4, and then he was in charge of any fetch quests that sounded appropriately lore-y.

Granted, that's the same problem I'm running into with Deadfire. I'm only on the third island, after leaving Neketaka, and I have like ten party members to fit into a party of five.

Is that unusual? Feels like it's the case more often than not for the genre.

I didn't get very far with Greedfall, is it worth it? It didn't help that it came out right around the same time as Disco. And Stygian.

I will say again, though, that I do think the anticlimax *is* the point, in almost every character's case. They're all stuck in ruts, none of them really knows what they want, and none of them really gets what they think they're looking for. "Shaggy Dog" Story and Crisis of Faith show up with some regularity on the game's characters page, and I think that'd deliberate — the theme that you cannot keep looking outside of yourself for something to *give* you meaning. Meaning is something you have to decide to create for yourself.

And I like that theme, and I get what they were going for with the character quests. I just don't think that comes across very well right up until the end of the game, and I don't think it gives them, or the Watcher, enough of a connection to the main plot for most of the game. Not that you have to be invested in the Hollowborn Crisis, per se. But if it's going to be the majority of the game, you have to at least be *affected* by it, driven by it, to a degree I don't think is really there.

Edited by Unsung on Aug 26th 2020 at 9:15:50 AM

That's exactly the problem. You might be doing something *interesting* with anti-climaxes or giving the characters hard irl aesops to deal with but... that doesn't change why anti-climaxes are bad writing? Even if, say, Eder's Brother's reasons for joining the saints war are unknown for ever and Eder needs to accept that, we need to build another climax so the quest and story can still feel satisfying from a narrative and viewing perspective.

Too many anti-climaxes and I start to not give a shit. And that's the problem. For a very massive chunk of this game, I got what they were going for and couldn't bring myself to care about a lot of the story. It might be interesting depending on execution to have a main character who's frustrated that they don't understand what's going on or this very strange man they now need to be utterly devoted to tracking down, but that doesn't make for an engaging character for me to give a shit about.

Basically, if you're going to remove satisfying elements like strong motivation or character climaxes or whatever in order to tell some lesson or make a point, you then need to strengthen THE OTHER satisfying elements to they can counter balance where the player is going to feel a bit disengaged.