Singular 'They' and Its Usage

English used to have a singular "you". In fact it had two: "thee" and "thou", effectively the English equivalent of the French "tu". "You" was our version of "vous". The thing is, here in Yorkshire, they're not quite dead, and survive in the form of "thee" and "tha".

For example:

Are tha gunna't pub?

Ah.

I'll go wi' thee.

Anyway the point is singular/plural ambiguity doesn't bother me.

edited 22nd Aug '12 2:30:26 AM by Elfive

It may bother non-native speakers more. And I believe English is the language with the most non-native speakers in the world.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."

No, it had one. Thee was a form of thou, and it was to thou like me is to I.

Also, I truly believe that thou deserves a comeback.

And I'm the exception! I'm a native speaker who feels like the singular they should be purged from this world with fire, and never spoken of again.

I consider "I" and "me" to be different words, not different forms of the same word. Doesn't really matter.

They are different forms of the same word, just as "am" and "are" are two different forms of the word to be.

I think we're using different definitions of "word". I mean a particular string of letters with an associated meaning, you seem to mean an infinitive and its conjugates.

Elfive,

I know. It is still not used by most of the English speaking population.

Btw, you first example you still uses the plural 'are'.

Pigeon,

Inaccuracy is only a problem if you are pedantic. Ambiguity*

is a real problem, sure. But, if you can get past that*

i.e. the meaning was understand

, the inaccuracy itself is irrelevant.

As for my small joke in the previous post. I only added the hottip for emphasis and humor. It wasn't needed. Elfive was referring to you*

with their*

Elfive

post. In fact, that was an edit. I originally had simply gone by 'he'*

though I know I don't know your gender

.

I'm using the definition "A set of related strings of letters that tend to use similar letters and arrangements of letters that share the same set of definitions, just in different situations."

I don't think this discussion is really relevant, but I believe Elfive's view is an example of how language can change your perceptions. I have the same view as pigeon here, but mainly because almost every word in my language chances wit context, in a way or another.

Regardless, if it weren't for the hottip, I would've had not idea you were using the singular they.

Also, once again, you focus on only a couple of the problems, rather than all of them.

In addition, even if the only problem were ambiguity, is it not worth one extra syllable or two extra letters to completely remove the problem?

Actually thinking about it I got it a bit wrong. I don't have a particularly strong accent myself, but I'm fairly sure that the verb associated with "tha" tends to be omitted. So you get:

Tha gunna't pub?

But the first rule of Yorkshire grammar is you do not talk about Yorkshire grammar.

Of course the ambiguity comes right back once there are two people interacting. "She gave her a cup of her favourite coffee." Whose favourite?

This would be handled by word endings in most languages.

I don't want to use "he or she" because I can't decide whether I should say "he or she" or "she or he." I'm inclined to put "she" first because there are more women than men in the world, but most people put "he" first so...

Anyway, I think the singular "they" is easy to say, sounds natural, and there's almost never any ambiguity if you see it in some kind of context.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

Exactly! There is already ambiguity inherent to pronouns, so there is no reason we should make it worse by having one of the pronouns be ambiguous as to whether it is a third person plural, or a third person singular.

Either "he or she" or "she or he" are equally acceptable. It's honestly up to personal preference. I personally prefer "he or she" as you are adding on to the word as you progress through the sentence, rather than taking away from it.

Pigeon,

Even if you didn't know who I was referring to, it wouldn't mater terribly. The core of the message was to clarify which type of ambiguity we were talking about, not who had talked about it in the first place.

I focus on a couple of problem and not all because not all the problems are problems at the same times and I don't think they are all problems anyway.

Yes, one extra syllable is too much when the "problem" is really only a minor inconsequential problem (which it is, most of time). If ambiguity is really a problem and can cause genuine confusion, I will say "he or she" very much clearly*

. Else-wise, I will keep myself short.

Incidentally. I am talking about spoken language here. I have no problem in writing s/he*

. I said I don't like using it because I think it don't flow well with the language. But it doesn't really bother me when other people does it.

Best,

Thanks. "Sounds natural" is the main reason I prefer singular they as well. Couldn't find the right word, despite being easy.

Michael,

Yeah, ambiguity happens all times. Why focus so much in that one?

edited 22nd Aug '12 3:13:09 AM by Heatth

I always read s/he as sh-he. Mostly because that's how I would pronounce it if i was reading out loud, I think.

Me too. Which is why I find it so odd.

@Heatth: Maybe it wouldn't be important that I couldn't tell, but it could be a problem if, say, someone else read that, and mistook the they as a plural, thinking it referred to him/her as well, and took offense, for some reason. It isn't that big of a problem in this situation, but it would be even more confusing to use the singular they some of the time and he or she the rest of the time as the use of he or she implies that all the theys you use are plural theys.

They might not all be problems at the same time, but they are all problems that should be dealt with.

The problem isn't minor or inconsequential. This is about clarity of language. This is about precision and accuracy of meaning. This is about elegance of speech, which is hampered by lack of clarity and lack of necessity of usage. These are important stuff! They matter.

Also, it is completely unnecessary to add a pause after saying "he or she". That will destroy the flow of the sentence, and, by extension, the elegance to your speech. Saying "he or she" without some extra pause of clearness of speaking that one doesn't give to other things.

I fail to see the problems with the flow of "he/she or "he or she". As long as you get used to speaking them, you can have them easily flow with your sentence.

The singular they hardly sounds natural to me...

The thing is, I don't focus only on this ambiguity, and attempt to rid my speech of any ambiguity, inaccuracy, inelegance, and imprecision. However, I put extra focus on it because A: it is completely unnecessary ambiguity and B: it is general ambiguity that can be solved with one simple fix, rather than a case by case judgement call, like the ambiguity that Michael pointed out would require.

@pigeon:

What are your views on Japanese Pronouns and Japanese Honorifics — are they too complex for what you have in mind?

edited 22nd Aug '12 3:28:50 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Again, there are tons of another points the language is just as inaccurate, if not more. Like the lack of singular you or the lack of gendered nouns. Why is the he/she inaccuracy so much more important?

If the singular they don't sound natural to you, than don't use it. Each one of us use what we find better, how about it?

...I had never read up about Japanese pronouns, before, but they look so BEAUTIFUL! :D How could I have been deprived of such beauty my entire life?

The Japanese honorifics are amazing as well!

When have I ever said that the imprecision around the singular they is more important than the imprecision around the lack of a distinction between singular and plural second person forms, or other such imprecision, inaccuracies, or inelegance in the English language? I have not. However, they are not the topic of this thread.

edited 22nd Aug '12 3:43:09 AM by deathpigeon

The problem with "he or she" is that it feels too official and bureocratic. It fits into legalese texts that need to be 100% accurate with no potential misunderstanding, but it would never fit into a literary context, other than quoting something that G La DOS would say, some mechanically precise phrase used to fill in the empty part, that might as well say [SUBJECT GENDER HERE].

Then go with the more informal "he/she".

Do you think, then, that any and all forms of ambiguity must be purged from the language. Just to make clear.

It is not a practical proposition. And would be a very annoying one if to be enforced into the others.

Still sounds unnatural.

In British legal documents, "he" is used by itself, with the feminine form assumed.