Game Grumps

Dan put out an official apology for the incident.

Hmm, strikes me as rather weak and unable to acknowledge that even if it was not grooming, the fact that there seemed to be a lack of acknowledgement of the asymmetrical nature of parasocial fan-creator relationships means it does still qualify as predatory. The rest of it comes off as a stock "I'm sorry you were offended" response.

It's something, but nothing about it inspires much confidence that he understands what he did wrong or that he won't do something like this again considering he's already openly admitted to cheating on previous girlfriends and other such sexual misconduct.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 6:09:54 AM

"I apologize if my actions or words ever made anyone upset"

Yeah, that's pretty much "I'm sorry you were offended" crap.

This is not an apology. This is just a passive-aggressive jab at people calling him out for his bullshit.

Edited by M84 on Mar 23rd 2021 at 9:30:04 PM

It's the stock generic "Youtuber apology" which has been so done to death over the last few years.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 9:40:06 AM

That definitely looks lawyer-drafted, because the original accusations that were the most shared were criminal in nature and he can't say anything that would implicate him, especially because those most widely-shared accusations are, as everyone who's looked into it agrees, complete bullshit. Especially considering it wasn't even the woman in question who made the accusations, but racists manipulating her story about a regrettable night to attack the Jewish guy and prop up Jon "actual Nazi" Tron.

Having sex with a non-minor is not criminal, however potentially immoral it may have been in context. There's no reason to get a lawyer involved or a need to mince his words that much unless someone actually went as far as pressing charges, which is unlikely unless they believe they have a seriously credible case against him. Which if that's the case honestly makes him the one who looks worse for it.

Having the guts to admit he did some wrong, and to recognize specifically what he did wrong, as a showing of good faith, would give him a leg up by pleasing both the legitimate critics and shaming the Hate Dumb by spinning their allegations into an opportunity to clear the air firmly enough to defang them. Instead now he just looks like the kind of person to engage in Never My Fault.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 10:31:44 AM

There is a 0% chance that a brand as big as the Grumps doesn't have lawyers on retainer, that he can easily call up for something as big as "I'm trending on Twitter because of a sex crime I didn't commit." Like, do you not see why a public figure whose income partially depends on their reputation would handle these sorts of things carefully? There's a very good reason why the number one piece of advice to anyone accused of a crime for any reason is to get a lawyer and not say a word without their say-so.

Like, you're acting like this is just a court of public opinion thing, and not a thing where Neo-Nazis got false pedophilia accusation about him trending on Twitter and into several online magazines. You know as well as I do that this wouldn't have been anything near what it was if it weren't for the rantgrumps lies.

That's a Hitler Ate Sugar defense. Rant Grumps may have fabricated the pedophilia and grooming aspects for sensationalism's sake, but these allegations existed forever before that, from people who were not neo-Nazis. They were wrong then, and it's wrong now. People have been wanting some kind of justice for that for years.

What used to just be rumors of him sleeping with younger fans (consensually but still exploitative of parasocial relationships) has now been confirmed for a fact. And while that's not criminal, that's still a shitty thing to do, something that deserves a real apology and not this half-assed one. Maybe he didn't shoot the dog, but we now have photos of him kicking it.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:07:48 AM

Honestly, the worst of the accusations are discredited enough Dan/the Grumps can probably weather the PR storm until it dies down.

I really don't think you're quite grasping what a big deal these allegations are. You can try to pretend all you want that everyone is super offended that he agreed to have sex with a 22-year-old woman who came onto him first, but it's obvious that the grooming allegations were the big story, and of course they need to take that seriously.

I'm not understanding why we need to let him be a Karma Houdini over the parts of the wrongdoing that were confirmed either. He's a successful celebrity, not exactly some poor smol Woobie who needs the Internet Defense Force to protect him.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:30:31 AM

But he's been open about how he used to act and how he's changed more recently. He's not done anything that requires criminal charges. Why do you think he needs to self-flagellate because a third party stole a woman's complaints, lied to make them seem worse, and blew them up without her consent?

(Seriously, can we take a moment to acknowledge how fucked up it is to take a story about how she felt led on by a one night stand and manipulate it to make it seem like she's the victim of a sex crime, and then plaster that all over the internet? Thank god her anonymity has been preserved through all of this.)

Like, you say he's a Karma Houdini. What karma do you think is appropriate?

Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:31:11 AM

I never said he did anything criminal. You're the first one suggesting that anything he did was so much as verging on criminal wrongdoing.

Again it shouldn't be hard to understand that celebrities exploiting their fame and parasocial relationships with fans to have sex with them is extremely skeevy and it's not cool to downplay the problems with that, regardless of anything else.

He's not going to sleep with you or me no matter how hard either of us whiteknight him for it. Nor should it be a thing we want in the first place.

Saying the above. That as a de-facto New Media celebrity, it's irresponsible to use one's fame to have sex with his fans, explaining why it's bad, and that he will not be doing it anymore, nor should any other Youtuber with his fame do it. Basically, he needs to show some damn maturity and have put some effort into his apology instead of going with the stock Never My Fault every Youtuber who gets caught doing something shitty does. It isn't that hard. That he can't even muster that is the issue.

This video goes into more detail about why it's a bad idea for creators to have sex with fans, even when it's consensual and even when it's the fan who initiates it.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 12:04:17 PM

No, it's not correct to say that a man who was publicly accused of grooming and pedophilia had nobody suggesting anything criminal about him. Or have you not seen anything about the story outside this thread?

And yes, okay, accusing me of wanting to sleep with him. Sure. If we're going through ad hominems, can I say that you seem to be digging in your heels and moving the goalposts because you were actively accusing him of grooming yesterday like in the post topping page 81, and you just don't want to admit you were wrong?

I fully admit that I was wrong in that particular aspect, mostly because people have tried to argue why grooming is somehow not a problem elsewhere which I think is bullshit.

Regardless, the initial premise that I and others pointed out in other threads is that whether or not grooming was involved, and by now we know it's in doubt (I hesitate to say absolutely false, just because philosophically speaking absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and it's difficult to prove a negative), creators sleeping with their fans is still wrong and should be avoided whenever possible.

Like I keep saying, the persistent rumors that have dogged him for years before the grooming and pedophilia allegations came up were that he was sleeping with multiple fans then ghosting them. That is not a crime but is still on the table and has not been fully answered for.

A very similar situation happened with Projared and just because he was vindicated of the actual worst charges like pedophilia, and just because he and his wife turned out to have an open marriage situation (so the initial allegations of adultery did not hold) doesn't mean he should get off scot-free for the part where he exploited his fame to receive nudes from his fans, however of-age they may have been. Which has since led to him also going the path from the typical "I'm sorry you were offended" Youtuber Apology to claiming he did nothing wrong, and his apologists joining in on trying to make him Karma Houdini.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 12:20:22 PM

That is literally the opposite of what you stated in the aforementioned posts.

Tolerable =/= good. I used that word specifically because there is still implicit wrongdoing at play here.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:50:02 AM

And I'm going to come out and say it: if you are an adult, and come onto another adult to have consensual sex, it is not that other adult's responsibility to audit you to make sure that your intentions are pure and you're not really obsessed with them.

I just linked the above video from Abigail Thorn with a timestamp where she explains in detail why if you're reasonably famous, then yes, it kind of is. Even if and especially if they're consenting.

I just said it, I provided a timestamp to the five-minute segment where she explains the power differential I already mentioned at length. If you disagree with me on the basic premise where I think it is irresponsible for someone who holds a great deal of power over someone else to exploit them for non-reciprocal sexual gratification, and you don't, then there is literally nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 12:03:11 PM

And I previously linked an article explaining why the power dynamic imbalance is similar to the boss-subordinate one. I even quoted the full text in case a paywall was an issue.

Edited by M84 on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:56:29 PM

It is physically impossible for someone to have watched that 45 minute video in the last ten minutes. Can you summarize?

No, you linked to an article with someone mentioning that there's a power imbalance between minor fans and adult youtubers, with mention that "hey boss and employee is another power balance that exists."

Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 23rd 2021 at 11:57:28 AM

The article compared them to be similar.

I'm pretty sure that the person in your video is describing being sexually harassed and blaming themself for it? Like, what the fuck, unsolicited nudes and breaking into their dressing room?

And how is consensual sex non-reciprocal? Like, women do in fact enjoy sex too, and our value is not diminished by having it.

So uh...been a while, stuff seemed to have died down so...

Some really dedicated fans made a fangame of tthe grumps as an ace attorney game. they really got the dialouge down packed and even some lesser known associates of the grumps are feature characters.

We've got the GG Animated, the massive collabs, some fantastic Mario Maker levels, and at least two fangames! Some of these Grumps fans are incredibly dedicated and I respect them.

So this is big.

The boys are back doing Doki Doki Literature Club to play its new DLC. The tags say there's going to be 10 episodes.