Ordinary Corrupt Android Love
I really do think if legality were determined by morality we'd actually be seeing some damn progress in this country.
Self-serious autistic metalhead who goes by any pronouns. (avvie template source)
Don't be silly. That's acting like rich people actually follow the law, let alone morals. 
Oh, bother.
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Insider doesn't have a paywall, at least not for me.
Edited by M84 on Mar 22nd 2021 at 10:44:16 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Maybe it's my location or I've looked at another article this month? IDK, but one's there for me.
Oh, bother.
I've already quoted damn near the entire article anyway at this point. But fine, here's the entire thing.
Charles denied wrongdoing by saying the fan lied about his age and sent Charles suggestive images first, to which he "flirted back." Since then, other accusers have come forward with allegations that Charles hasn't addressed.
The claims highlight a new phenomenon involving Hollywood's new class of 20-something powerbrokers. Through social media, influencers have unfettered access to a pool of eager fans, and in some cases, this has resulted in sexual relationships, virtually or physically.
Regardless of age, experts say the power dynamic between an influencer and fan in this situation presents uncomfortable questions of consent and vulnerability.
Experts say the power dynamic in an influencer-fan relationship can be similar to a boss-subordinate one
The power an influencer can hold over their fans is similar to a boss-employee relationship, experts told Insider.
Psychologist and sexual violence prevention expert Dr. Elizabeth L. Jeglic, who is a professor of psychology at John Jay College in New York, told Insider there needs to be a consideration of the responsibility celebrities have, and whether the misuse of it can inadvertently lead to predatory behavior.
"I don't necessarily think these people go into it wanting it to be grooming or sexually coercive," she said. "But I think because of the innate power differential, that's ultimately what transpires."
She said in a boss-employee relationship, age is irrelevant, which is also the case in celebrity-fan dynamics.
"You can be the same age as your boss or even older than your boss, but they have the power over you," she said. "So it's just not appropriate to have those kinds of relationships."
While the influencer may see nothing wrong with the seemingly consensual behavior, the fan may be acting out of being star-struck and craving their attention. If the influencer holds a status that a romantic partner perceives as better-than and unattainable, then they may be better off assuming any sexual contact between them would be inappropriate.
Jeglic said this is a whole new dynamic that's been born out of the internet age, and experts are still trying to figure out the best way to tackle the issues it raises. The influencer or celebrity may be blind to the dynamic because they have not learned what boundaries they should or should not cross, often because they are young themselves.
"Becoming a celebrity can happen overnight in the You Tube world or in the Tik Tok world," said Jeglic. "Nobody is giving these people lessons in this, they don't go to HR training. There is no HR."
Influencers and their fans build one-sided parasocial relationships
YouTubers and Tik Tok stars are much more accessible than traditional celebrities ever were. Anyone can contact them by direct messages on social media, whereas before the internet, interactions with famous people were limited to in-person meet-and-greets or sending fan mail.
Child and adolescent psychologist Dr. Katherine Williams, the founding director of the Anxiety & OCD Clinic at Rady Children's Hospital in San Diego, told Insider that direct messaging is "as easy as going to the refrigerator to get food now."
"If you're feeling lonely, it's so easy to then fall prey to messaging back and forth with Tik Tok stars," she said. "So I do think that it's problematic because they're often not real-life-based relationships."
The bond that's built between an internet star and their audience is often referred to as a parasocial relationship — the faux intimacy of the influencer revealing their lives through a screen gives the impression of trust between the subject and viewer. This can be problematic, Jeglic said, because of the weighted power dynamic already present in the fan-influencer relationship.
Jeglic said fans may assume these influencers will never hurt or betray them because they feel like they know the person on the screen, and thus they may be more susceptible to abuse.
"They get this automatic trust because they're on You Tube or because they're on Tik Tok and they have this following, whether they deserve it or not," she said. "You feel like this person wouldn't hurt me because I know them. I see them every day."
Influencers caught talking inappropriately with underage fans can face serious legal trouble
Influencers forming relationships with fans becomes an even more complicated (and illegal) dynamic if the fan is underage. The responsibility for these relationships always lies with the adult — ignorance of someone's age isn't a defense in California. Influencers who have been exchanging sexual content with minors can face serious legal trouble.
For example, Tony Lopez, along with the founders of his former Tik Toker collective The Hype House, is currently being sued for sexual battery and emotional distress, according to legal documents obtained by TMZ.
James Charles, meanwhile, said in his Notes app apology that he did send and receive sexually explicit content from an underaged fan, explaining that the fan told Charles that he was 18 years old — not 16. Charles said he plans to ask for identification or a passport in the future to verify a fan's age and identity.
Becoming a social media star comes with a responsibility that many young people may not yet fully understand. But experts say that doesn't mean they can act without consequences.
Social media stars are the biggest celebrities of the younger generation. Jeglic said this is something influencers need to consider, or one bad decision could haunt them for the rest of their lives.
"People are looking up to them," she said. "So if they are engaging in this type of behavior, what kind of a role model are they being?"
Ah, "experts say it may," the most trustworthy of scientific publications.
But no really, parasocial relationships are definitely super sketchy in both ways: from the idols who get stalked by guys who see them as their real girlfriends to streamers who guilt their fans into donating all they have. But I don't think that saying that people with online followings should abstain from sex is the answer.
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Yes, all one of them, with a quote from another on a different topic thrown in for good measure.
Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:01:27 AM
Oh, bother.
The experts are named in the article, tbf.
And FFS, nobody's saying these people should take up vows of celibacy. Just that they need to be more fucking careful about who they fuck. It's called being responsible.
Edited by M84 on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:01:17 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
How? Avoid those who are in the same circles and share interests with you? Only go after those who dislike your work? Carefully vet each potential partner to make sure they're not too into you?
Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:03:39 AM
Oh, bother.
That last one isn't as unreasonable as you might think. It's probably not a bad idea for a celebrity to confirm that their potential hookup isn't an overly devoted fan or potential stalker.
Edited by M84 on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:05:51 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Or just be as honest about the potential issues a relationship can have as possible, instead of pushing them aside.
I don't think it's impossible for a creator-fan relationship to work out and be consensual and healthy (so I disagree with the assertion the article makes that it's inherently evil), just that it's significantly more difficult due to said aforementioned issues. They're things that, with enough communication and good faith, can be overcome, but it's difficult to the point that few reasonable people would think it worth it.
Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:09:16 AM
+x2 I mean my feeling is this is probably more suited to politics and media at this point, but would in your opinion it be okay to date a casual fan, as opposed to a hardcore one, cause I can definitely see some potential problems with the latter, but not as much with the former.
Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:08:04 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Oh, bother.
Hence why it's better just to play it safe and not engage in that relationship in the first place.
Making it work without crossing any lines requires a certain degree of maturity and responsibility.
Edited by M84 on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:08:12 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
That's perfectly reasonable. My only issue is that I haven't seen anything to suggest that Dan wasn't honest about only wanting sex and not a relationship, so it's unfair to blame him for not wanting to date the women afterward.
This probably comes down to my personal biases, as I tend to inherently mentally separate hookups from romance if there wasn't an agreement otherwise beforehand.
Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:11:33 AM
I'd say yes-ish, as the emergence of parasocial attachment is less likely. Because I do agree that anyone who takes, say, the extreme stance of telling Evan Fong he's not allowed to date anyone who's so much as heard of him or else he's basically raping them, is frankly ridiculous and it does annoy me that people actually do go that far when it comes to the whole "no power differentials allowed" discourse. Or comparable takes like "if you are taller than your partner you are an abuser".
The multiple accounts I've seen do indicate he did consistently emotionally lead his partners on and feed them bullshit about wanting to start an earnest relationship only to ditch them afterwards. Although I haven't seen proof as indisputable as the newest one, and this one does not make it clear if that's the case, then it's at the very least manipulative behavior.
Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 22nd 2021 at 11:14:24 AM
If he did lie about a future then that changes things. I'd only seen evidence of the sexting, not anything beyond that.
One of the PMs
used as “evidence” didn’t even come from Dan.
The Unknown
I'm honestly curious how long ago this sexting stuff happened. (I admittedly didn't look hard into the evidence presented because I take it at face value.) I think Dan's in a committed relationship now and it's entirely possible for him to have realized what he did was wrong if this happened years ago.
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
Everything I've seen said he was 35 at the time. He's around 40 now.
Lots of coffee
Personally, if he apologizes and owns up for his past manipulative behavior (because that seems pretty consistent and conclusive), then that's something I could maybe get over, and then maybe I'd be able to watch the series again while also understanding Dan's not the best dude. Grooming would be a deal breaker, obviously, but a history of manipulating your partners is something I can understand somebody outgrowing.
But he has to apologize, an actual apology and not a Jake Paul kind of deal, and ideally sort things out with the people he's hurt if they're open to communicating with him. And I'm still not going back to the way I saw him before.
Honestly, Rantgrumps is kind of a drama-mongering hate circlejerk so if this is motivated by "wehhh no jon no funny" and not, like, actual concern for young women pursuing the musicians they adore, then I'm gonna be pissed.
Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 22nd 2021 at 1:52:16 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I mean, it's Rantgrumps so that's exactly what it is, unfortunately. For every person who's actually earnest and well-intentioned, there are 10 more who are just Jontron apologists who wanted to treat this like it was the smoking gun to finally bring the channel down. It's basically the kiwifarms-lite where if even if some of the information they are presenting is true, the actual posters behind it are also clearly framing it in a way to get a specific reaction.
I think I've settled on the stance that Dan's behavior itself was shitty and it would be best for him to own up to that aspect, but the way this was entirely framed was intentionally inaccurate on that subreddit part. Because there is a fine line between "Influencer took advantage of his status to get hookups" and "Influencer is a literal groomer & pedophile."
Edited by Lionheart0 on Mar 23rd 2021 at 6:39:46 AM
Lots of coffee
I'm sure Dan's not gonna be proud of the way he treated those women, so hopefully he can put out some sort of statement explaining what happened and apologizing without getting too defensive. Arin's message about Game Grumps' racist humor back in June seemed to come from a very genuine place (especially since they also removed a lot of their more egregious racist content), which is why I'm cautiously optimistic that Dan can also offer a genuine statement here, though of course it's not an identical situation and it's more personal which is awkward.
And ugh, fuck Rantgrumps, they gave me bad vibes but I didn't think they were this bad. Apparently the girl the post was about didn't even consider it grooming (though she did admit it was kind of an abuse of power on his part), and the birthday message wasn't from Dan and was just "proof of age" and it seems they didn't really talk besides that one time until she was 22. So clearly none of this was done with her safety in mind.
Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 23rd 2021 at 6:50:52 AM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I'm watching you!
Wait, what racist stuff happened in June?
After the murder of George Floyd, Arin took down videos that had jokes fans considered racist as a show of good faith.
YMMV on whether it's the right move to just go dark on all those videos. Only somewhat related but I find it rich that Rant Grumps and assorted elements of the Game Grumps Hate Dumb like to complain about Grumps being the worst people ever due to their supposed incorrigible racism, while being embittered Jon fans.
Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 23rd 2021 at 1:31:11 PM
Yeah I don't trust anybody whose a Jon fan these days.
Yeah, I'll be real, if you link a scientifically unsourced article with a paywall I'm not going to be reading and trusting it.