Fate oath/alternative (Festival of Epics Reboot) Discussion

It is at this point I reread Ragna's post and realized Jeanne is coming to Archer's Peak. That...is going to be interesting. Either way Elias is in for a show.

edited 27th Sep '12 9:47:49 PM by AuraofMildChaos

Indeed!

Though, I think this is about time to out-due Fate/Zero Caster's murder spree in a single post!

Seriously though, just what did you think all of Kaleb's familiars were doing all this time? Having a tea party?

I think we all assumed he was raising a zombie army, which appears to be the case?

Also, just an FYI, but I'm pretty sure ghouls totally suck and can't possibly defeat a Servant, even with a large numerical advantage... except maybe Assassin.

edited 27th Sep '12 10:49:43 PM by darksidevoid

Nothing says that Ghouls are strong enough to defeat Servants and given that the only reason they become Ghouls at all is that their brains did not completely die, I would say that head shot is probably super effective against them.

Ghouls are also the initial state an advanced Dead would take to become a full-fledged Dead Apostle. Alone, one wouldn't be capable of defeating a Servant, but this is a horde of them. And we've seen the capabilities of normal Dead in Fate/Zero, but those were just normal dead, not Ghouls.

Also, "The decayed corpses now begin activity as Ghouls and their transformed souls, have now bypassed the necessity of the brain to hold the soul, as the soul is now separate from the body" implies that it's only the body moving, so removing the heads would be the same as if you were to remove a limb; they would still be capable of coming after you because the 'soul' is no longer a part of the corpse/body.

Basically, you would either have to use Holy magic (like a Church Member) to cleanse them, or completely destroy most of their body that they're harmless in order to effectively put them down.

edited 27th Sep '12 11:33:24 PM by Aevum

Umm, Ghouls are pretty much the cannon fodder. There is no way how even a huge horde of them could threaten a Servant. Even when they evolve into Living Dead, they are actually even weaker than usual Dead familiars and those were dispatched by pretty much everyone in Tsukihime without a problem. I would peg them as weaker than the summoned monsters of either 4th or 5th War Caster, and Servants could cleave through scores of those without any difficulty.

That is without opening the can of worms if they even could hurt a Servant in the first place considering they are not completely magical beings (as their body is a corpse of a human) like summoned monsters and do not possess any magical weapons unless you give them some.

edited 28th Sep '12 12:05:18 AM by Drakovicz

Hm... oh well. Not like it really matters since Kaleb is going to be deader than dead fairly soon.... though, not before pulling off one last trick.

While I know that I'm unexpectedly killing another character, a thing that is highly frowned upon,I believe it suspect for Kaleb to survive the strike lobg enough to do what he did. First, he makes it seem like he was hit on the side when a level A+ Noble Phantasm that never fails its mark should hit right in the center of mass and the blow him away with the prana and energy contained in it. Second, he managed to live through such a hit to use his three command seals when he is a sqishy magus without any special physical abilities or magical skills that would allow him such a feat. While I admit that I owe the character some respect on their final moments, the way he endures such an overkill attack I belive is suspect.

Then while the first two command seals are used in perfectly valid uses the third one is flat out impossible. Even Gilgamesh when submerged in the mud of the Grail and granted a new body needed mana from Kirei and the orphans to remain alive. Nevermind that Jack is a Berserker which consumes even more mana than usual. So unfortunatelu, Jack should be going away soon too.

You straight out fired a Noble Phantasm, which is capable of bypassing everything, which has also been written as if it is capable of bypassing Avalon with it's ability to cross parallel worlds, and will always hit its target (never specified that it had to be center of the mass) straight at Kaleb, who I did have more plans for, with no fore-warning or consent on my part.

I think I'm entitled for him to do something more than him just going "Falls over and dies."

Also, about his last Command Seal, Fate Prototype Rider from the Wiki would like to have a talk with you, considering his Master used a Command Seal to incarnate him. So yes, it is very much possible.

And that part about Gilgamesh/Orphans was only to supply his Noble Phantasm, not his form. He is very much capable of living without a Master because of the body granted to him.

edited 28th Sep '12 7:29:02 AM by Aevum

I think the case there was that Gil needed that mana for his Noble Phantasm. What other use would he have for it? If his new body needed mana to sustain materialization, then it'd be no different from a normal Servant body, correct?

And yes, such a thing was done in Prototype (which despite its debated canonicity should at least be treated as a partially accurate source, considering most 'verse details remain the same). However, there I believe it was done with three Command Spells, each of which is equatable to True Magic.

Hm... Just because I'm extremely curious and because this has been bugging me ever since I read about Prototype Rider and I'd like to hear what you guys' opinion on this is; just how would one go about using three, and not one, Command Seals to incarnate someone?

Wouldn't using the last two Commands be a wasted effort, since it would be just like what Waver had done to his Servant by ordering basically the same Command three times over?

edited 28th Sep '12 7:55:30 AM by Aevum

I think the idea behind using 3 seals on a single command is that they would, hypothetically, reinforce each other. So if one seal can do amazing things, using three can bring about a true miracle but the Servant no longer has to listen to the Master because all the command seals are gone unless they got an extra one from somewhere.

As to how they do it I suppose that you could, within the the command itself, specify that all the seals are to be used on a single command.

edited 28th Sep '12 8:16:40 AM by AuraofMildChaos

Before anything happens, I have another argument to make. I'm on my way home so please wait for me.

If the Servant agrees with the command, the spell adds to its total mana.

Even with a physical body, Gilgamesh needed energy to sustain himself. Furthermore, he remained as a Servant of classification Archer even with the physical body.

Command seals cannot do something impossible, even less so anything that takes a long time. Thus incarnating a Servant, something that is supposedly permanent is beyond their power. Otherwise, Waver would have incarnated Iskandar to grant his wish, Shirou and Tohsaka would have done the same with Saber, ect. Indeed, it would be more useful to incarnate your Servant, then you no longer need to supply them with prana to keep them around. Pretty convenient. What happened with Rider prototype is just that, a prototype before the rules were properly established. And even in that case it took all three Command Seals to make such a thing happen.

As for my actions with shooting Kaleb? I'm sorry that you had other plans with him, but you simply were not careful enough. You revealed your Master to us, had him gloat and summon his army of the death, he killed a helpless orphan before I could act and all those evil actions before a Chaotic Good Servant with an ability to strike at range with incredible power. That's the problem with being an evil monster, you give people reason to want to kill you. Kaleb moved Robin enough to disregard all other circumstances and use her trump card, her most powerful Noble Phantasm with the sole purpose of destroying him utterly.

Now, Golden Arrow couldn't hit through Avalon because that is another dimension. It strikes through parallel universes so that if there is any chance, any opportunity in another close universe for the arrow to hit, it will hit.

And that takes me to the last point... It's a A+ Noble Phantasm, fired at a Magus with no defenses, no way to dodge, no supernatural abilities or the such. Saying it took his arm and harmed his side so that he could live enough to channel mana, give his three long orders before dying I think is not warranted. I played my card, I took my risk and I'm willing to live with those, but by the rules established in the game, Kaleb should have been blown to pieces.

You could have at least told me what you were doing through a PM, or mentioned it here before firing it straight at Kaleb, since I believe that's what most people have been doing so far. You also gave me no incentive on what you were doing, and I gave both you and Elias many times to leave, even when Kaleb asked nicely. He simply took it to the extreme when he felt endangered, and when he honestly wanted to get home. Truth be told, that's all that I intended Kaleb to do when arriving at the pier, drop by, say hello, and them calmly ask them to leave, and walk off towards the Island. Now he's dead. So thank you for that.

And her Noble Phantasm is an arrow that would hit its target no matter what, it is never specified or stated anywhere on her profile that it can do anything more than that. I don't see anywhere where it's stated that it is capable of blowing a person to pieces. I'm honestly reconsidering if Kaleb should even be dead or had suffered any major damage now that I look back and think about it.

As for the whole "Not able to incarnate a Servant even though it was proven in Pseudo-Canon to be possible", I'm honestly getting tired of arguing about it since there's so many hypothetical answers being thrown around that I really don't care anymore. I just say leave it up to Ragna and his decision, since he's head GM and his word is law.

If he says that's its not possible, I'll go ahead and edit it.

Edit: Scratch the bow part, didn't see the bit about Kinetic Energy, though that only ties into velocity and the direct impact of the arrow. So, I doubt the impact would have obliterated Kaleb, and what I had happened to him still sounds extreme.

edited 28th Sep '12 9:36:29 AM by Aevum

Robin had no reason beyond common sense to target Kaleb besides being disgusting, so she had not targeted him in the battle as it started. Then he summoned his army of the death, proved how twisted he was, killed an innocent, showed what a threat he is to society at large.

Then Robin has a reason to kill him. Before that, I would have never tried something so rash and nasty as killing an enemy character without giving ample chance.

As for the arrow, I admit my description of its powers is lacking, but it is an A+ Noble Phantasm aimed at a helpless Master with full intent to kill. In these circumstances, if Robin wanted him dead he should be dead, not terribly wounded. She wanted to kill him and it's an arrow that never misses its mark. It's not going to be aimed to his side or arm. I repeat, he is a Magus. A Servant should be fully capable of killing a Magus with normal attacks, never mind their most powerful Noble Phantasm.

As for the whole Incarnate thing... I am against it and have given my case for why it shouldn't happen, given how it was never and option in the more realized Fate universe when it would have been a Godsend.

As for not informing you through PM... sorry, that is a big bad on my part. However, you also never gave us a chance to react as you summoned all the zombies and then beat to death an orphan when Robin should have been more than capable of killing the Ghoul in the process.

It's a far less grievous transgression, but still, not many chances were being given.

I have given my case and I await judgment from Ragna.

edited 28th Sep '12 9:42:51 AM by daltar

I honestly did not see the death of a little NPC Orphan to drastically effect the outcome of negotiations so badly, that Robin Hood would actually say "I'm sorry... but you children are already dead," and proceed to use her strongest NP to pop an arrow up in Kaleb's body.

The most I thought it would do would just convince them to leave, rather than stay and watch more orphans get killed. Boy was I horrendously wrong, huh?

As for Servants being capable of killing Masters with a normal attack... and my memory may be wrong here, so forgive me, but I'm pretty sure Rin, Shirou, and a couple other human Masters in the routes of Fate/Stay Night, and its amusing and heart wrenching Bad Ends had humans fighting against Servants toe-to-toe... and exchanging blows. So I'm heavily leaning towards that it's possible to survive normal blows and attacks from a Servant. As for the Gold Arrow... well, I've already said my input.

And again, I stand by everything I had previously said and have stated. Waiting on Ragna's Judgement.

edited 28th Sep '12 9:56:02 AM by Aevum

Oh yeah, question from the Fate pleb: are Ghouls more or less nonmagical, aside from the lack of soul? Because if that's true they shouldn't be capable of harming Servants, since only magical attacks can damage a Servant. At least this is what has been previously established. If a Ghoul has no real magical output on its fists or something, a Servant can literally totally shrug it off.

I... don't know?

Though, thinking back, Kaleb does use his necromancy through his Mystic Code, The Tome of Osiris, and he has been using it to revive zombies and ghouls... and to be strictly honest, I've been using it almost exactly like Prelati's spellbook. >.>

So... going off of this... would Kaleb's zombies/ghouls which were given life through his spellbook, and not through a normal Dead Apostle, be capable of harming Servants?

Yeah... I actually have no idea, to be quite honest.

edited 28th Sep '12 12:27:11 PM by Aevum

Okay, we can logically figure this out then!

First of all, does Kaleb actively expend prana when creating ghouls? If so, then I believe that that could make them capable of harming Servants.

Another question one could ask is, did the monster Gilles summoned with his book ever harm Servants in Fate/Zero? If so, then Kaleb's ghouls should too, since his book is based on Gilles'.

Well, the book serves as a prana container, yet Kaleb uses his own prana activating the spell within the book that revives the Ghouls/zombies. (Would this technically make the book a Dead Apostle? o.O)

As for the other question... It's never really stated that they harm anyone, yet they were in the process of strangling Rider's Chariot to death, and were restraining Saber at another point... though those familiars were sea demons, and these are undead, so I think they apply differently here...

...I'm so confused... T.T

Necromancy, only slightly confusing.

I think the crucial difference is that 4th Casters monsters (and 5th Casters skeleton golems) are not natural. They are otherworldly monsters that do not exist, and considering they needed prana to remain there, even cant exist in this world, so them being magical by nature and thus being able to harm Servant makes sense.

On the other hand, Ghouls and The Dead, are dead bodies reanimated by magic. While the means that moves and controls them is unnatural and magical, the bodies themselves are mundane. In other words: What is magical is the force that keeps them going, not the bodies themselves. Thus they probably shouldn't be able to harm Servants. (Unless they are so completely over-saturated with prana to the point they are no different to say... conceptual weapon or Servant themselves - judging by their description I dont think that is the case, but thats just me)

Thats my completely subjective opinion on the subject.

edited 28th Sep '12 1:02:29 PM by Drakovicz

Welp, time for the Servants to effortlessly destroy Kaleb's hard-fought zombie army. Hopefully Rider can get there in time and splatter them with his (unstranglable) harley-davidson.

...

Jack The Ripper fighting Robin Hood while Theodore Roosevelt races to try and help while riding a motorcycle, probably also summoning a horde of undead Rough Riders.

Oh, yeah, better bring them up while we're on the Undead. Roosevelt's NP burns a lot of mana, because the Rough Riders are, themselves, his Noble Phantasm. Like how Excalibur is Arthur's.