MOD NOTE: Please note the following part of the forum rules:
The initial OP posted below covers it well enough: the premise of this thread is that men's issues exist. Don't bother posting if you don't believe there is such a thing.
Here's hoping this isn't considered too redundant. I've noticed that our existing threads about sexism tend to get bogged down in Oppression Olympics or else wildly derailed, so I thought I'd make a thread specifically to talk about discrimination issues that disproportionately affect men.
No Oppression Olympics here, okay? No saying "But that's not important because women suffer X which is worse!" And no discussing these issues purely in terms of how much better women have it. Okay? If the discussion cannot meaningfully proceed without making a comparison to male and female treatment, that's fine, but on the whole I want this thread to be about how men are harmed by society and how we can fix it. Issues like:
- The male-only draft (in countries that have one)
- Circumcision
- Cavalier attitudes toward men's pain and sickness, AKA "Walk it off!"
- The Success Myth, which defines a man's desirability by his material success. Also The Myth of Men Not Being Hot, which denies that men can be sexually attractive as male beings.
- Sexual abuse of men.
- Family law.
- General attitudes that men are dangerous or untrustworthy.
I could go on making the list, but I think you get the idea.
Despite what you might have heard about feminists not caring about men, it's not true. I care about men. Patriarchy sucks for them as much as it sucks for women, in a lot of ways. So I'm putting my keyboard where my mouth is and making a thread for us to all care about men.
Also? If you're male and think of something as a men's issue, by golly that makes it a men's issue fit for inclusion in this thread. I might disagree with you as to the solution, but as a woman I'm not going to tell you you have no right to be concerned about it. No "womansplaining" here.
Edited by nombretomado on Dec 15th 2019 at 5:19:34 AM
Oh, bother.
Basically when it's an opportunity to show off to others it's the purview of men. But when it's actual work for your family and not a way to show off, it's women's work.
Disgusted, but not surprised
he/him
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Nailed it. Yeah.
A procrastination in of itself
I think baking is still traditionally seen as cooking for women even when done commercially. I have half a memory of doing a gender equality training once that specifically mentioned stereotyping women as baking cupcakes and men as being unable to make food.
Edited by Silasw on Mar 20th 2024 at 8:26:39 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Oh, bother.
Because baking usually means sweets, and "real" men hate sugar.
But that too has an exception for pro chefs who make cakes to show off.
Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2024 at 4:27:31 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
I don't believe that anyone sees sugar as unmanly. Cake decorating is typically very flowery and women tend to have creative hobbies more than men. Women still are expected to do cooking when it is seen as a chore.
Oh, bother.
Oh, people see sugar as unmanly. There's a reason we've got Real Men Hate Sugar.
Hence why it's considered "manly" to prefer coffee black instead of adding milk and sugar.
Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2024 at 5:26:00 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Industrious Incisors
If needing cream and sugar to drink coffee is unmanly, that must make me the unmanliest of all, as I’d need so much cream and sugar that there wouldn’t even be room left in the cup for coffee![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
The criteria used to define manly is comical.
SoundCloud
he/him
And even with baking there's a distinction between icing and pretty colours and 'manly' rustic sourdough...
Less about the sugar, more about the presentation, I suspect.
Oh, bother.
Yes. Yes it is.
Disgusted, but not surprised
The Real Men hate Sugar says it is mostly Japanese. Explains why I haven't heard of it.
Oh, bother.
But not relegated to Japanese media alone. There's a reason there are a bunch of entries on that page besides Anime and Manga.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Not all those examples are to do with sugar, and a lot them are probably misuse.
Oh, bother.
Point out the ones that you think are misuse then.
Disgusted, but not surprised
This isn't the thread for that, but some of them are just characters who happen to be male drinking tea or coffee without sugar, or not liking a lot of sugar. There are a good deal of examples of male characters liking sugar.
Drinking coffee black is not only the only proper way to drink coffee, but is manly. There really isn't a stigma to drinking coffee with milk and sugar, and there isn't any stigma for men eating sweet things, and there isn't any stigma for men to know how to cook. At least not in any country that I have lived in.
Idea Seeker
Yeah, like with Arnold as John Matrix in Commando eating ice cream.
You can't kill art.
Oh, bother.
That just proves the point! "But is manly".
Why do you think it's considered manly? Because it doesn't have milk or sugar added.
Just because not literally every male character fits that trope doesn't mean the trope doesn't exist.
It's a stupid and outdated idea, but that's sexism for you.
Shit, I certainly don't subscribe to the idea. I'm a guy and I love sweets. Though I do prefer coffee and tea without anything added.
The trope description also points out that in Western society this trope is applied more to drink orders such as alcoholic beverages. Hence why it's acceptable for men to drink beer and hard liquor but not "fruity" cocktails.
Which again...stupid and arbitrary. I for one appreciate a good cocktail like a Cosmopolitan or a Singapore Sling.
It's almost like preconceptions about what a gender is "supposed" to like are bullshit.
Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2024 at 7:36:16 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Face me now, Bitch!
I personally don't find sugar that unmanly, so much as I would rather not eat it as much. Found out the hard way when I learned that NAFLD (Non Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease) is driven primarily by excess sugar rather then Saturated fat like a lot of people believe, so I had to cut back on sugar and carbs drastically to reverse it before it became cirrhosis.
Watch Symphogear
Some things are seen as manly, but the opposite isn't seen as unmanly.
A lot of men drink coffee with milk and sugar. A lot don't drink coffee.
It is also important to remember, half of being a man, is being grown up.
Oh, bother.
Real Men Hate Sugar often goes hand in hand with Real Men Eat Meat. In both cases there's this idea that real men enjoy eating a particular thing.
And that of course ties into the way bbq is considered "manly" in a way that other cooking at home is not.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Face me now, Bitch!
Have you heard of Sweet Baby Ray's?
Oh, bother.
What, you think the existence of a sweet bbq sauce is proof that the trope doesn't exist outside of Japan? Traditional Japanese bbq sauce is also savory-sweet.
It's almost like stereotypes don't accurately reflect reality.
Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2024 at 9:09:01 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Industrious Incisors
There are also definitely people who will mock anyone who uses less than the hottest sauce as unmanly.
SoundCloud
Oh, bother.
Which — much like with other standards of "manliness" — is arbitrary and stupid. While I personally love spicy food, the person with a higher tolerance for spicy food in our family is my mother.
Edited by M84 on Mar 20th 2024 at 9:15:12 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised
Cooking is a weird one, in terms of gender roles.
Professional chefs? Overwhelmingly men at the famous, fine-dining end. And in any case, the profession's not viewed as compromising their masculinity (or, where appropriate, heterosexuality). If anything they're stereotyped as hard-drinking, hard-working, and short-tempered.
Barbecues? Stereotypically, it's the men cooking things. Meat and fire.
But routinely cooking for family, rather than professionally or for a gathering of friends? Suddenly that's seen as women's work by a significant number of people. Which varies a lot by country and culture, but...